Shaq and Kobe....Drexler and Hakeem...Who is the better Championship Tandem

I'd like to see Kobe and Shaq each drop 40 on a healthy, in-their-prime Stockton and Malone in Utah in the playoffs in the same game before I'd admit to them being a better tandem.

Kobe is nice, but has a looooooooooooong way to go before he's ever considered to be a better player than Clyde Drexler. The comparison to Jordon is ridiculous.

Clyde led Portland to the finals. Hakeem led the Rockets to the finals. Each individually, separate from the other. Until Kobe and Shaq can say the same individually, how can they be considered on the same level as Clyde and Dream?

The story isn't over, but Kobe and Shaq have a lot of history to create before we elevate them among the truly great players of the game where Hakeem and Clyde deservedly reside.

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sir scarvajal:

Kobe might have been "placed" on the All-defensive team, but as you can see by this years postseason, that was obviuusly a gift/joke.

Once again, Drexler wasn't a great defender, but I can never recall him getting abused by the likes of T.Delk, B.Wells or S.Augmon. Jordan probably did set a record against Drexler, but that's Jordan. Who did Kobe stop in this postseason on the blocks?

If Kobe was around then, he would have been in the same breath of Dumars, Max, Starks and Mitch defensively--the guys who gave Jordan a few more problems.

You must be kidding me. To be hyped so much, Kobe has some of the worst post-defense I hace ever seen. Jordan would eat him alive. He couldn't stop B.Wells for God's sake. And it's not like these players were justing scoring at random, teams were purpously attacking him because they knew he was a liability.

A couple of other points--except for game 5 versus the Jazz, I never remember Clyde being the difference for the Rockets (or Portland for that matter) in the clutch. Kobe during this playoff period alone won 3-4 games for them with key buckest with the game absolutely in the balance.

You must be kidding me. Okay, Kobe hit two game winning shots in the playoffs, but he played like crap the majority of the time in the last two rounds. He has had far more bad games in this title run than good ones. As far as Drexler and 95, I can't even think of a game-winning shot that he hit, but I really can't think of a situation where he had to take one. Hakeem was the #1 offensive weapon then, and unlike Shaq, you can give him the ball for the final shot. Clyde played more consistent ball during the 95 playoff run, and I guarentee you he didn't have as many poor games as Kobe did, especially not in the Finals.

And he carried those Blazer teams to the Finals twice. He didn't play second fiddle, like Kobe is doing now. Even Costas said that Kobe could have a crappy game and the Lakers could still win because of Shaq. That wasn't the case when Clyde was in Portland. I doubt Bryant could even lead a team to the Finals, or at least he has not shown us that he can yet (3 or 4 games out of a postseason don't qualify).


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I remember the deciding game 5 in 95 when the rockets were down by 15 or so in the 4th.

w/o Hakeem on the floor for a majority of the time, Drexler led the team and made up most of that defecit by himself.

Drexler had plenty of clutch moments.

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No signature for you!

 

CK, that is exactly the one time I remember Clyde stepping up big, I mean really big, in the playoffs. He saved our bacon that year, no question.

Getting to the finals doesn't mean that much, just ask Ewing, Malone, Stockton, or Barkley, it is winning it that counts. Both Clyde and Kobe wouldn't have won it with out their big horses.

I am not saying Kobe is the better overall player than Clyde yet, but there is no question he is a better defensive player. You can pick apart some plays where Kobe was beat, but you can also pick out some plays that he made that noone else could make (e.g., he came the closest to single handledly stopping Iverson over a whole game; he also blocked or forced numerous bad shots by his man throughout the playoffs). He is simply the best man on man defensive 2 guard out there, which is why he won the defensive award--it is not Kobe-favorism. Kobe favorism is the way his overall offensive game and jump shooting is overrated. What he is very, very good at is defense and open court play. I would rather take Kobe defensively against the likes of Jordon or Payton in their prime in a heart beat over Drexler. And Drexler didn't far too well against either. The closest thing we had to a stopper as a 2 guard when Clyde was here wasn't even him, it was Elie. Clyde was a great player and very good gamler on passing lanes, but a great individual defender he was not.

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"The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."

 

I'm not saying Clyde was a great defensive player, but Kobe sure isn't. Besides the award that Kobe was GIVEN, he has done nothing to show that he is a better defensive player than Clyde was.

Once again, I do not recall teams making plans to purpously attack Clyde at the defensive end in the playoffs. This has happened to Kobe. Clyde didn't shut down great players, but I didn't see him get abused by mediocore to average ones like Kobe has. After this years playoffs, I don't see how you can rate Kobe's defensive skills so highly. He got dominated time and time again. First Tony Delk, than Penny, then B.Wells, S.Smith, S.Augmon and Quitten. The Rose in the Finals.

How can someone who can't defend his position in the post be the best man-on-man defender at his position? And Kobe played Allen well for two games!! Allen averaged like 30 in all the games before that. Since you are a Rocket fan, don't you think it's odd that Kobe suddenly became a "good" defender when the 7'0 monster behind him started to apply himself on D (or at least started to camp down in the lane).

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Pippen was named to the all defensive team when he was in Houston, and those of us who watched the games know that almost every SF in the league smoked him on regular basis.
What does that tell you about the of the selection process.

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HAKEEM... the best ever!


[This message has been edited by Rocketincleveland (edited June 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rocketincleveland (edited June 24, 2000).]

 

Some of you guys should go back and rewatch some of those playoffs game or catch them on espn classic if you can. I saw the 95 finals sereis the other day and Drexler played a large role. Game 1, perhaps the pivotal game of the series, the Rockets, if you remember, were down big. Hakeem got his 3rd foul early in the second and it was DREXLEr, thats right, Drexler, who not only held them in the game but took a 20 point deficit and brought it down to 8 at halftime.
Kobe has hit some big shots, but CLyde was also extremely important to the 95 playoff run. He had big games throughout. I think it was that year during game 4 agaisnt the JAzz that both Clyde and HAkeem scored 40 points to get them to a game 5. HAs Kobe even scored 40 in a playoff game yet?? Does anybody else remember these or does everyone still think Clyde wasnt the key to us winning the championship that year (heck, without him we were just a 6 seed---with him and the team clicking we took that seed and won the title).

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When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat!

 

Once you get to the bottom, not may people read your reply (at least I don't), but here it goes: Shaq & kobe vs. Dream and Glide is an imperfect comparison at this stage. Lets face it, there was one reason why LA won. His name starts with S. Bryant had some good games, but he's nothing like Clyde in the '95 finals. I'm sure the big Aristotle would be the first to agree with this.

While Hakeem and O'Neal are both great centers, they play very different games. Nonetheless, both are poteant. If you compare the Y2K fanals with the '95 finals on the basis on TANDEM ALONE I give it to Hakeem and Clyde. They were the superstars that carried their team with maturity, experience and skill. Bryant had a good overtime and O'Neal had a lot of dunks.

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G

 

Kobe was #1 in blocks and #7 in steals for 2 guards last year. I don't have access to the numbers, but I can pretty much assure you the shooting % of his opponent would be among the lowest of any 2 guard. The only other player with a legit argument for being the best defenive 2 over Kobe is Eddie Jones. And if you have watched both of them play (see the way Iverson CONSISTENTLY smoked Eddie), you will realize the 1st team defensive team was right on with having Kobe there. He simply makes defensive plays no other 2 guard can make.

Just some other numbers (playoffs), Kobe had the most steals (tied with Pippen at 32), and the third most blocks (also 32, behind Shaq and Zo). Granted these are not averaged per game, but they are for all positions and the 4 conference finals teams all played a lot of games.

As I said you can pick on some plays he was beat by Smith, Pippen, Reggie, Rose or Wells (every player gets beat some times in the NBA-Shaq, Ewing and Robinson would score 20+ on Hakeem even in Hakeem's prime), but then you are missing the all the great defensive plays Kobe made if you think he is weak in this department. I'll provide an example, for all the plays you said Wells made on Kobe, Wells only went 21/52 in the series by my count (shooting 40%). How about Pippen?, well he only shot 42% as well, how about Reggie?, also 42%. Kobe was winnning the battle against those guys on the defensive end. Rose and Smith, too of the best offensive 2 guards, were up higher than the others (47% each), but Smith's % was lower than it was in the rest of his playoffs. And you can discount this some by trying to say Ron Harper was the difference, but he can only play one guy, and was only in the games about .50 of the time. In a nutshell, Kobe was huge factor defensively, evident by playoff and regular seasons #s.

Personally, I think Kobe's overall offesive game needs a lot of work and is overrated (particularly identifying other players in scoring position), but his defense and defensive playmaking ability this year was terrific from the objective eye. If Clyde was better (I'll accept he was), the reason was because he was a better offensive player.

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"The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."

 

sir scarvajal:

McGrady was the #1 SG in blocks per game last year. I don't know what Kobe's ranking was, but he still didn't average 1 a game. Kobe was #7 in steals, but Eddie was #1. #7 at your position is not all that great. Clyde is #4 all time by the way.

Kobe had high steals and block numbers because he played more games. For example, Pippen and the Blazers plyed less games in the first round and the same in the second round (mabye less). The average per game is what's important.

Iverson consistently smoked Eddie because once Allen gets past him, there is no 7'0 beast in the lane to contest his shot. Kobe has that luxury. Once again, do you think it's just a coincidence that Kobe has his best defensive season at the same time as Shaq. Why do you think he's so exposed in post up situations? Because Shaq isn't back there to protect the basket. Ivy didn't get off on the Lakers because they don't have a shooting big man to draw Shaq away from the basket, so he gets to camp in the lane all day and deny penetration. Since you're a Rocket fan, you should know how much a defensive center improves a guards defense.

Kobe mad some good plays on D, but it's the fact that he was the focal point of the other teams offense. I never saw that happen to Clyde, where everyone was supposed to attack him at every opportunity (and mostly succeed), but it happened to Kobe. That's why I can't rank him higher than Clyde defensively. He hasn't done anything yet to get that honor. His selection to the Defensive team was a gift (ala Pippen last year), and Clyde didn't make the defensive team because Jordan and Dumars were in the league at the same time he was. The reason the shooting %'s for the other players aren't that high is because of the success Fox, Harper and Horry had guarding them. Kobe was getting torched the majority of the time, and i don't see how you can say you didn't notice, or how you can even try to say Kobe won any defensive matchup in the playoffs. Watch the game, don't just listen to what the commentators try to shove you.




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First of all let me say Shaq and Kobe are not champions they are just a image of what the NBA wanted to be represented as. You should be comparing Miller and Rose to Dream and Drex and Dream and Drex are better. You cant compare 2 guys who were awarded a NBC/NBA title just for being marketable to Dream and Drex.

Lakers champions of nothing but marketing

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Right COACH (not sure what you are a coach of though, maybe the X-files)!!

Icehouse, I just pointed out Kobe held virtually all his opponents below what other teams did in the playoffs, I am pretty confident he would have been among the best in this during the regular season. Bonzi Wells, who you said beat on him consistently in the post, only made 40% of his shots against the Lakers, that won't beat hardly anyone. The reason all the teams focused on Kobe was that they wanted to make him work on defense, foul him out, or work on his injury. But this strategy wasn't working, the stats and the game results proove this.

You can ignore the stats all you want-- point to this example was Kobe was beat or that, or say this or that play Shaq saved him, but then why are his numbers better than those of the Atlanta or Miami 2 guards with even better shot blockers behind them?? As for McGardy and blocks, I guess ESPN has him as an SF, that is what I would call him anyway. Even if you include McGrady, than Kobe was #2 this year.

As for Kobe stopping Iverson. He stayed with him and blocked plenty of his shots (not Oneal, if Kobe blocked it first it doesn't matter where Oneal was). Nobody else in the league could make those plays. Jones wasn't even able to stay with Iverson at all. I guess we would have to ask Allen who is the tougher player to beat.

For another time, defense is not an area where Kobe is overrated. Offense,, particular set offense and seeing his teammates on the floor, is an area where is is overrated. Also, I do remember plenty of plays where MJ and Payton made a bunch of plays whether Clyde was on them or not. I do remember Clyde being targeted, even if you use the somewhat unfair criteria of isolation plays of MJ's were called against him.

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"The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."

 

I just dig into the X files of styles. Now if your talking about the word X I dont watch that stupid t.v. show maybe you do thats why you brought it up. The only X about the Lakers I know is the xtra amount of calls the Lakers got this year in the playoffs. The xcessive amount of calls missed when the Lakers fouled other teams. The xtremely biased officiating for Shaq and Kobe "NBC" Bryant. So theres your X facts not files. 2 clowns getting the calls while other teams have to be 10 points better than the Lakers just to win. Now it that fair or unfair, I say unfair so how can they be the best. Easy answer there not!

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[This message has been edited by COACH SAMPSON (edited June 27, 2000).]

 

Kobe's D is not as overrated as you think guys. take the portland series for instance. kobe had to guard smith, pippen, wells, stoudamire, etc. kobe can guard and disrupt a team's point guard. he can also defend the small forward position quite well, and defend fellow shooting guards. that means kobe is able to defend 3 POSITIONS. drexler could not do this at all. drexler played good defense dont get me wrong but wasnt nearly as versatile. and btw dont underestimate kobe's D on iverson, the 2nd highest scorer, who takes a lot of jump shots. shaq did block and prevent him from driving but kobe shut him down completely on the perimeter. perimeter D is MUCH different than interior D. kobe if you'll notice moves his feet very well on D. Kobe on the 1st Defensive Team is not a gift at all, it was well deserved.

hakeem of course is much better than shaq on D then and proly always will have been better.

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--TEX

 

I don't think its quite fair to judge Hakeem and Clyde versus Kobe and Shaq.

I mean, when Clyde and Hakeem won their title, they had, combined, spent almost as many years in the NBA, as Shaquille O'neal had living

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Its only my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

 

sir scarvajal:

The shooting percentages are lower because of the success Fox, Horry and Harper had on those players. If you go watch the games again, you will see that those players scored on Kobe the majority of the time. That's why Phil took him off of people, because he was getting torched. So in essence, your stats really prove nothing because Kobe was not holding those players 100% of the time. Per my observations, he got scored on at will.

As far as Drexler, Jordan and Payton are great players (scorers and sure hall-of-famers). They are both their teams #1 options, so they will try to score no matter who is guarding them. Some of the players that Kobe was guarding don't qualify for that status (Delk, Augmon, B.Wells, Pippen). The point I was trying to make is that I have never seen a team just try to purpously attack Clyde in that manner, not one great dominating player like Jordan, but an entire team, where the coach is saying, whoever Kobe's holding...post him up cause you will either score or get fouled. The teams were attacking him down low because he would either foul the players, or get scored on, the majority of the time. That's crappy defence, and that is why I say he is overrated (as far as being "placed" on the All-NBA team) just like Pippen was placed their last year. I have never seen an All-NBA defender get torched or attacked like that by teams in a playoff run, not just one team, but every team. can you think of an example? What does that tell you.

And as far as Allen goes, I was trying to say that he was not driving to the basket because of Shaq's presence. All Kobe had to do was keep him in front of him. Eddie does not have that luxury. When Allen drives past Eddie, he can get an easier shot. That's not the case with Kobe. It's easier to put up a jumper over him than it is over Shaq, and more than likely Allen won't get a call against Shaq either. So I don't see how you can say Shaq's presence does not make a difference. Onc again, do you think it's a big coincidence that Kobe's defence improved when Shaq's did, in the same way that Kenny Smith, Cassell and Maxwell all had their best defensive years here with Dream guarding their backs.

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Once again, listen Kobe defenders:

KOBE IS A CRAPPY DEFENDER IN THE POST. HE GOT TORCHED IN THE PLAYOFFS ON A CONSISTENT BASIS NO MATTER WHO WAS POSTING HIM UP. HE IS NOT A BAD DEFENDER, BUT DEFINATELY NOT ALL-NBA MATERIAL. NO ONE ALL-NBA MATERIAL SHOULD BE GETTING DONE UP LIKE THAT. THAT IS WHY HE IS OVERRATED.

Sure, he can guard three positions, as long as they don't post him up. Imagine him on a team without a defensive center........

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Once Again Listen Icehouse

KOBE HAD A SPRAINED ANKLE AND OTHER INJURIES WHICH IS WHY THE OPPONENTS WENT RIGHT AT HIM. THEY WANTED HIM TO FOUL AND BE OUT OF THE GAME. WELL GUESS WHAT IT RARELY WORKED AS JACKSON LEFT HIM IN, AS YOULL NOTICE IN GAME 4 AFTER KOBE PICKED UP HIS 4TH FOUL HE PICKED UP HIS D AND OFFENSE. IF YOU KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT D YOU WOULD NOTICE THAT KOBE HAS TO GUARD THE OTHER TEAM's BEST SCORER. KOBE PLAYS OK POST D BUT IT COULD GET BETTER. HIS FUNDAMENTAL D AND PERIMETER D IS OUTSTANDING. STOP BEING SO DAMN BIASED BECAUSE HE IS HOISTING THE TROPHY AND THE ROCKETS ARE NOT. AND STOP YELLIN!!!!

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--TEX

 

Texasalsa:

Kobe didn't sprain his ankle until the Finals. He was perfectly healthy when he was getting torched down low in the first three rounds.

Sorry, Tony Delk is not Sacremento's top option, and he was abusing Kobe. Penny is a top option for Phoenix. He was killing Kobe, and they switched him to another player. Stoudamire is not Portland's top option in the backcourt. Neither is Bonzi Wells or Augmon (who both torched Kobe). Pippen and Smith are good options for the Blazers (but they torched him too).

His perimiter D is good, not great. His post D sucks. I'm not biased, I can just see past the hype. Too bad everyone else can't.

Sorry for yelling though.

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Well, for starters, Kobe was guarding Kidd in the Phoenix series. Remember, Big Chief Triangle likes to put his best perimeter defender on the point guard to help control the game.

Now, I'll agree, his post defense isn't good. At all. Notice, players like Wells, Delk, et al. were able to post Kobe up becuase the jump shooting of their centers(Divac, Sabas) was able to draw Shaq out to the top of the key and leave Kobe isolated on the interior. When the centers did not shoot well, Shaq was able to sag back into the low post and players were not so effective in the low-post.

But his perimeter defense is excellent. Also his concept of team defense is pretty good. Though it doesn't hurt that he has a 7'2 330 lb mistake-eraser behind him.

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Its only my opinion. Feel free to disagree.