what's circular is that you keep choosing me as the main target of your posts, yet I'm hardly doing anything that you post about. I rarely talk about Shane and Memphis. I'm not going to argue that when I didn't watch memphis enough back then to know what he brought or didn't bring. I may mention something like his average, but that's about it. And most anoying of all is when you keep asking if i'm ever remotely critical of shane, yet you are rarely here and rarely read the majority of the posts. If you have a busy likfe, that's great, but don't assume the world stops when you're gone, plenty is talked about, including Battier and any complaint i may have against him. So go ahead and ask me to search for evidence of this, then ask me to present you a trade scenario involving shane, and then precede to keep asking for 2-3 posts when I ignore you. In other words, be circular.
Leebigez, i know you may think it's semantics, but i worded my post carefully. I said "really good" on both ends. Most of those players aren't that. Howard i consider more than a role player. Brewer and Prince are not really good offensively. Salmon is more than a role player but gets pushed back due to depth at his position on his last two teams and that keeps him down. I wouldn't go based on salary though, just because you're the third highest paid doesn't always mean you're the third best player. He's slightly over paid and others around him are really underpaid. It's not a perfect distribution there. I'll give you the road games with Yao, but shane is not talented enough offensively to step up in a game like game 7 where they're facing much much better talent and there's no star to feed off of, on top of that he's guarding their best player. It's not an excuse, it's being realistic. There's always the possibility he's left open enough to get going, but he's not going to get what he wants just because he tries. He's not going to start driving on Kobe and draining turnarounds on him just because he tries to. He's chuck Hayes on the perimeter with a shot. He's not Aaron Brooks being hesitant. I can understand what you mean about Shane's "blind supporters"...there's definitely some, but fans that have legit reasons for supporting Battier shouldn't be lumped in with those.
Damn, Battier's become as polarizing as T-mac and Alston are on this board. I would probably be in the 'Battier hater' camp. For his $8 mil salary, he SHOULD be expected bring 10~15 points a night. Anything less and he's just a defensive specialist in the same way Bruce Bowen was on the Spurs...and Bruce Bowen only got paid $5 mil/yr. For his $8 mil salary and the fact he was traded for a draft pick, just providing 'intangibles' isn't enough, he needs to chip in on the offensive end as well. The funny thing about Shane is he's overrated/overvalued when he doesn't score 10~15 pts in addition to his intangibles but underrated/very valuable when he does score at least that many points. Sadly he was on the overrated side more often than the underrated side last season...some games he was basically a wing version of Chuck Hayes (no offense to this season's Chuck Hayes )
Shane has never made 8 million a year. He's been closer to 6 mill most of his career and won't crack over 7 until next year. If Bowen made 4-5 mill being a defensive specialist with only a baseline 3 point shot AND poor FT shooting, then i'd say shane is fairly worth 5-6 mill. Like i said before, he's overpaid by about 1-2 millon. That being said, the NBA is full of overpaid/underpaid players, so comparing one player to another to figure out their monetary value isn't always going to bring you a valid figure. In this case it may work, but then someone will turn it around and say, oh well if Scola makes only 3 mill then why are we paying Battier so much more? Or why couldn't we get shane for the same price, e tc...Always look at the bigger picture, houston didn't negotiate Shane's contract, and it was signed several years ago. The league is more versatile and more talented now, so shane wouldn't have received as much now. His contract is set though and all you can do is stick with it until it's worthwhile and apparently it still is to Houston, it may not be later this year or next year, we'll see.
I would ask you to consider the other side of the coin, as well. It is the nature of sports that one group will always be able to find something negative in a player, while the other group finds something positive. I won't even bother explaining how the logic of Battier detractors is circular. Their arguments are generally taking the opposite stance of a supporter. Battier arguments are like politics.
RV6, u act like someone opened the top of the nba and poured liquid talent and versitility in the league. The nba has always been based on talent and versitility. Go look at the 95 rockets when they had horry starting at pf after the drexler trade. This isn't new, hell cliff robinson was a 6'11 guy that could play and guard 3 positions. Look at his contract and look at swift that has expired and rudy or brewer that are on rookie deals and it didn't ever match up. It doesn't matter because I don't think he will be here much longer.
I find it amusing you would make this comparison, given that in a few years, Battier arguments will be politics.
I would have no problem trading Battier in the right deal. He's not untouchable. Denying his benefits is silly, though. Look at his defense on Williams last night. He never takes dumb shots, he's always in position on defense and he's the leader of the team. He's a true professional and that rubs off on all of his teammates. That means something, especially on a young team. Would I like him to create off the dribble? Sure. I also wish Yao were healthy and Chuck Hayes were five inches taller.
I don't see how it's not true. Was there versatility before? Yes. Was there talent? Yes, but how is it not clear that there's much more talent and versatility now? How hard was it to pick an all -star team back then? Not very hard. Now you have well-deserving players not making it even if the ones that made it deserved it as well. I'm not saying it happened over night, but it's been progressively getting better and better with guys leaving college sooner, more foreign talent than ever, and more programs out there like the NBDL or overseas teams developing those that need a boost. On top of that you got guys learning to play new positions more than before because their position may be stacked and their talent is too promising to waste or give up on.
Is it really a surprise for the success of the TEAM that when Hayes and Battier joins in on the action on offense it increases the chances of success? Jazz game was a great showing. In both direct and indirect ways its proved correct all the people who'd called for more offense from them. I think Battier and Hayes have raised the bar on themselves.
Battier would be an okay player coming off the bench for 15-20 mpg. But as a starter who regularly plays over 30 mpg at $6.8 million and who cost us a lottery pick (as opposed to a minor transaction involving either free agency or a trade) is overvalued, overhyped, too inconsistent, and doesn't produce hardly enough on offense to justify all his pt. How many starting 2,3 players in the NBA handle the ball worse than Battier? Have you ever seen him in transition on offense? It's like he's never played basketball before in his life. Also, since when is working hard a talent or skill? What good is it when you just don't have the requisite skills necessary to contribute on a consistent basis on both ends of the court? Guys at the gym play hard too. Does that mean they should start for your Houston Rockets? It's not too much to ask a starting 2,3 player who plays over 30 mpg to be able to dribble a basketball. I also think his so-called leadership is overrated much like he is as a player. You're the biggest Battier apologist on this website. You defend him no matter what. Critical thinking is not a concept you understand when it comes to Battier. You refuse to answer questions and provide evidence when challenged and start complaining and getting emotional as a way to deflect attention away from the issues. I wonder what you're going to do when Battier is no longer part of this team. Will somebody have to take you to the ER? Are you going to go become a fan of his new team? If so, maybe we can trade you for "future considerations." Battier having some of the worst handles in the NBA and being unable to create is not a circular argument. It's a fact. Battier standing in the corner a lot on offense while his man either sits in Yao's lap, rests on D, or wreaks havoc on the defensive end is not a circular argument. It's a fact. It's also funny because Battier's supposed high bball iq is celebrated by so many, but on offense many times he either looks lost, runs around aimlessly like a chicken with his head cut off, or just hangs out in the corner. These are not traits indicative of somebody with a high bball iq. Battier having almost as many ft attempts his rookie year than he's had during his 4 year stint with the Rockets is also a fact. Kobe's #s increasing against the Rockets since the arrival of Battier is another inconvenient truth. Battier not significantly improving any facet of his game since entering in the league is also a fact. For a guy that's lauded as such a "winner", his individual and team accomplishments in the NBA are very little. 0 and 12 playoff record with Memphis and hasn't really "won" anything.
good post. like shane or hate him, like the +/- stats or hate it, you've gotta admit +36 is really rare.
LMAO @ kwame. I'm more worried about what you'd do if shane stuck around and we ended up winning a ring with him as the starter. I was a rockets fans before Shane and I'll be one after he leaves. I support HOUSTON ROCKETS. And i'll defend any one of them when i feel it's justified. It's not different than when fans wanted to trade brooks after every 2 or 3 assist game he had and i mocked them for like 5 game threads asking brooks to be traded. I defended him then and I defend shane now, and ill defend the next rocket who's attacked by fans who have no legit reasoning and resort to the same old boring tactics. You don't understand supply and demand when it comes to the NBA, it's a shame too, because i can tell you're a bright person, at least with whatever you do for a living, unfortunately not with basketball. By the way, it's funny how you kept away from the other threads where i wrote when shane should be traded or when i think he will be. But i guess you wouldn't be able to accuse me of being a shane apologist then, makes sense. Oh wait there's something even more funny than that, it's when i mentioned shane's inability to handle the ball or make moves with the ball in one of those really long battier threads last season. You basically said i was making excuses for him so fans wouldn't expect much, yet here you are using that same point. Weird, huh, especially since you say i've never criticized him. And if you can find a 6-8 guy at the gym with a 3 point shot, 80% FT shoooting, a high basketball IQ, who's got some muscle on him, isnt a bonehead, and can defend NBA wings, then let me know, i'd like to become his agent.
Jared Dudley >>> Steve Nash Dorell Wright >>> Dwayne Wade http://www.nba.com/games/20091103/PHXMIA/boxscore.html
I think you're blind to the leadership and effort. I've noticed both he and Scola always fight even if they have bad offensive efforts.
The Heat need to give Wade's minutes to Dorell Wright. If they had done that tonight, the Heat would have won.
Daniel Gibson > LeBron James Anthony Parker >>> LeBron James Mo Williams >>> LeBron James http://www.nba.com/games/20091103/WASCLE/boxscore.html Derek Fisher >> Kobe Bryant http://www.nba.com/games/20091103/LALOKC/boxscore.html
None of those players mentioned have even close to the +/- differential that Shane had. +36 on-cout vs -19 off-court, on the road in Utah. It could be a statistical fluke, but its a pretty remarkable one. Sometimes to understand the significant of the +/- numbers, it helps to take a look at the gameflow: http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20091102&game=HOUUTH The Rockets lost ground at the end of each quarter, which happened to coincide with Battier sitting. Otherwise, they mostly played Utah even or killed them (start of third, start of fourth) -- when Battier was on the floor. But none of that proves that Battier had a great game.
