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Shams - Philly offered Simmons/Thybulle + draft compensation. Did we make the right deal?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by ThatBoyNick, Jan 13, 2021.

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Which package would you have prefered?

Poll closed Jan 18, 2021.
  1. Nets package

    177 vote(s)
    50.4%
  2. Phillys package

    174 vote(s)
    49.6%
  1. vator

    vator Contributing Member

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    PJ Tucker was a complete zero on offense for most of the playoffs. 4 points per game in almost 30 minutes in 23 games. Everybody doesn’t need to be a prolific scorer to win. He wouldn’t be relied upon to be a scorer either. Being reliant on his offensive production or having him in lineups with other guys who can’t space the floor is the issue which is why I think Ben at the 4 and small ball 5 situationally may be a solution.
     
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  2. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    So now we're using PJ Tucker as an apt comparison for Ben Simmons? Let's take a step back and think about that first because, as you will probably agree, Simmons' talent level is a few levels higher than Tucker which should mean expectations of him producing more should also be higher. Tucker has never been (or shouldn't be) considered as a team's 2nd or 3rd best player; if that's the case then that team won't win anything. Simmons, on the other hand, should be a team's 2nd or 3rd best player and I damn well expect a player like that to be more than a "complete zero on offense". I also never said Simmons need to be a "prolific scorer to win" nor did I say he would need to "be relied upon to be a scorer". What I want is Simmons to NOT be a complete zero on offense during crunch time and to be at least respectable enough that defenses won't sag off of him, which teams are comfortable doing right now.
     
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  3. vator

    vator Contributing Member

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    For the record, I’m just engaging in the theory of this for fun. I don’t think it will actually happen. Morey would ask for more than we should be willing to give up. Wall and some picks. Wall, Gordon and some picks. Oh yeah House. He can go. That’s about all I’d want to do and still feel good about it. Not interested in trading our young guys

    Anyways the point was not trying to make an apples to apples comparison in regards to PJ, it was simply to point out that you can win with one non scorer on the floor. Ben does everything else and he can be an opportunistic scorer in transition and playing off of other guys in the half court cutting to the basket, slipping screens and pick and rolls. The onus would be on Silas to figure out how to use him in the half court. You have to be a little more creative. Milwaukee varied the way they were using Giannis in the playoffs and it really made him much more difficult to defend. Ben is a zero in the half court when you place him at the top of the key as the PG with the defense sagged into the paint because he can’t and won’t shoot so avoid using him that way. When you have KPJ and Green that shouldn’t be an issue.
     
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  4. roslolian

    roslolian Rockets Only Fan
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    Tucker is like a 7M player Simmons is a 35M player. Its ok for Tucker to have 4 ppg cuz he takes any little of the salary cap, in Simmons case if he puts up 4 ppg he better be locking up Lebron and KD and holding them to 9 ppg or something which obv he isnt doing.
     
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  5. vator

    vator Contributing Member

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    That’s fair. He makes a lot of money considering he has a net negative jumpshot. He’s a positive everywhere else though. He is certainly a flawed player which is why he’s even available in the first place. You have to assume he’ll never be a good shooter at this point and any team trading for him has to weigh that against his positional versatility, elite defense, rebounding, and play making.
     
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  6. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    You can win with a non scorer on the floor, yes, I'll agree with you on that. However, you can't win with a non scorer on the floor when he's also, at his best, having the ball in his hands and being your de facto play maker. That might have worked 5-10 years ago but today's NBA pretty much requires the ball handler to be able to score, specifically moreso as a deep ball threat. You bring up Giannis and I've said before that he's the guy Simmons should take a long hard look at to see what kind of player Ben can become. Giannis has a shaky 3 point shot and his mid range game is laughable but Giannis is fearless in attacking the rim and has a devastating drive and spin move that gets him a dunk almost all of the time. Ben doesn't even have that in his repertoire. Giannis has no issues posting up and getting his points down low while Ben has repeatedly avoid playing the role of a big throughout his NBA career.

    The problem with the Sixers is that Simmons was their lone or best ball handler which is why they tried (and should have tried harder) to trade for Lowry during the deadline. Would we have that same problem with KPJ on the team? Probably not but that goes back to the argument I made about paying Simmons to be one of your best players only to see him turn into more of an ancillary side act during crunch time that makes me say "thanks...but no thanks".
     
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  7. Jalen Green OnlyFan

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    Anyone who didn't want to bottom out for a chance at this years draft class is an idiot. Worked out perfectly because we got the best player in the class.

    I have tremendous respect for Cade and Jalen's other rivals but Jalen is like Goku guys. He has that child-like love for the game and is just going to keep rising to meet new challenges.
     
  8. treyk3

    treyk3 Contributing Member

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    I wanted Simmons instead of the Nets package.

    I'm glad the Rockets took the Nets package because it helped the tank even though that wasn't the plan. They basically failed upwards. (they didn't want to tank they thought Oladipo was good enough to compete for a playoff position the aim was 6-8 seed).

    I would happily trade all 3 Nets picks, the Bucks pick and Wall (salary matching) for Simmons tomorrow.

    Simmons is a special talent and is elite at so many things. I don't care about his free throws, his refusal to shoot, or the meme-ification that his doubters have turned to. He's a top passer, he's an elite player in the short roll, he's the ultimate switch defender and he allows you to try different things in your lineups. The Rockets don't have a player that occupies the paint right now. The fit with Embiid is workable but sadly the 76ers have failed to properly play them together. Rivers (someone I liked due to his culture raising nature) was atrocious last season. Wood needs someone like Simmons next to him in the long run, maybe that is Garuba? For now, if a talent like Simmons is available grab him and at worst, recoup his value and reflip him in a year. The pressure in Houston is non-existent and this is a perfect partner to dump Wall on.

    KPJ/Green/Tate/Simmons/Wood
    KJ Martin/ Eric Gordon/ Garuba/ Sengun/ Armoni/ Christopher

    That's a playoff team and something you could definitely build on now.
     
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  9. roslolian

    roslolian Rockets Only Fan
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    Well the problem for me is he is making the max right? So if he isnt scoring then its not enough to just be elite he has to got to be lopsidedly over one side cuz 30% of the cap is devoted to him.

    Like Luka for example, he serves as the offensive engine and basically carries the offense for the team so even if he isnt the best defender that's ok.

    With Simmons since he is a defensive specialist then he has to be locking guys up on D to justify his salary. Compare him to his teammate Thybulle, on defense there's very little difference but Thybulle is making rookie salary. Simmons' playmaking is kinda dumb as well, the last thing you wanna do is give the ball to the guy who wont score.

    It's one thing if the dude doesnt have a jumpshot he can still be a playmaker, but if the dude is scared to score on layups and dunks why's he even touching the ball?
     
    #1329 roslolian, Aug 2, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
  10. roslolian

    roslolian Rockets Only Fan
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    The only you thing you got right is that's a playoff team.
     
  11. dmoneybangbang

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    I just don’t understand trying to compete right now with what’s out there. Simmons is a good player but he’s a floor raiser. We will be in the mix for the play-in or the playoffs in general but that’s it. Simmons has proved that he isn’t going to improve his game or change his game.
     
    #1331 dmoneybangbang, Aug 2, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
  12. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    Multiple league sources maintain that Philly’s asking price for Ben Simmons on the eve of free agency remains sky-high. At minimum, the Sixers are seeking control of at least four future first-round picks via direct trade or pick swaps, along with an All-Star-level player in most (but not all) scenarios.

     
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  13. cheke64

    cheke64 Member

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    Lunacy.
     
  14. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

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  15. ElPigto

    ElPigto Member
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    :eek::eek::eek:

    I liked your post initially, and hit like, then I kept reading and I was like, oh hell no. I just don't believe in Simmons like you do. It started out solid though. :D
     
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  16. Francis3422

    Francis3422 Member

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    Nice post Trey. I mostly agree but want to keep the Nets 2026 for ourselves.


    Wall+Nets 2022+Nets 2024+Bucks pick is about what Id give up. Simmons is fine but I doubt he wants to lose (in Houston) for 2-3 years while our players mature. I get why it is attractive. Id rather suck, garner more assets and add our established star player IE Morant, later in the rebuild.
     
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  17. GottaHaveHeart

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    Keep him Morey and watch Embiid walk out on you! He has no leverage, he needs to bring the asking price down, now granted he’s doing his due diligence but for 4 - 1st rnds. he’s delusional.
     
  18. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    Morey has no choice but to keep Simmons' price sky high, otherwise he's going to get bottom-feeder offers. I think Morey will pull the trigger if he can get one solid player plus 2 unprotected firsts and a pick swap.

    A trade that makes sense for both teams is for Philly to send Simmons to San Antonio for a S&T DeMar Derozan plus 2 1st rounders. Philly gets a two-way player that can score and San Antonio brings Simmons in be their point guard, giving Murray more opportunity to play offball. This also might be the best place for Simmons to improve his shooting.
     
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  19. vator

    vator Contributing Member

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    Morey is tripping. Why would anybody give up a player that is an all star caliber player for another all star player with no jumpshot AND sweeten the deal by including multiple draft picks on top of it?

    MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!
     
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  20. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    Cannot negotiate bottom up, need to do it top down.

    Setting up parameters of the discussion.

    Not getting 4 unprotected picks and an All Star, but that's where you start.
     
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