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Serious Environmental Question from a conservative

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Wild Bill, Dec 18, 2008.

  1. thegary

    thegary Member

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    How did I arrive in a place like this?
    Red right hand does the alligator kiss

    My hair turns white and my face turns green
    But my feet are still moving if you know what I mean

    Satan said dance

    He says to me to shake around
    And don't stop 'til you hit the ground

    And I know it is not how you thought it would be
    No whips no chains just dancing dancing dancing dancing
    dancing dancing dancing dancing dancing dancing dancing
    dancing dancing dancing dancing

    Satan said dance
     
  2. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    It seemed liked you were trying to troll in a decent thread..........

    Then again, everyone does it once in a while.
     
  3. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    Trolling? hmmm..

    I wasn't directing anything towards Wild Bill. It was saracasm about the way threads about environmental issues have gone lately.

    Would it make you all sleep easier if I just deleted it?
     
  4. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Yesthankyouplease, I'm a very light sleeper. :(


    Now that you've deleted your terrible terrible remark. Can you leave the night light on?
     
    #24 Invisible Fan, Dec 18, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008
  5. thegary

    thegary Member

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    yes, because your last trolling expedition left me without REM.
    it's the end of the world, as you know it...
     
  6. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    i knew it.

    we'll see you all later. sleep tight.
     
  7. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    LOLz. man am i getting punchy from grading finals...
     
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Here I am missing all this fun from our BBS Gomer Pyle-mentalist.
     
  9. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    As usual disgusting comments by MadMax ruin another quality thread -- welcome to my ignore list.
     
  10. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    i hate you.
     
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    edit.....
     
    #31 MadMax, Dec 18, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008
  12. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    We all know that when it comes to trolling, outlandish and heated comments there is no comparison to MadMax. The only one who comes close is rhester.

    ;) :p
     
  13. Tom Bombadillo

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    A good thread turned in to a MadMax "Cosby dropping"........
     
  14. Wild Bill

    Wild Bill Member

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    none taken. I assumed it was sarcasm.
     
  15. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    Please don't quote MadMax -- I have him on ignore.
     
  16. Wild Bill

    Wild Bill Member

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    Thanks all for the responses to my original post. I apologize for the lag time in my own response, but the fourth quarter is rapidly coming to an end and one of my employees just quit (very smart in this economy :rolleyes: ).

    Rhadamanthus, thanks for your input. Your experience offers wisdom on the subject that I don't possess. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind:

    1. In regards to recycling the used flourescents, is there a system in place to encourage/monitor recylcing among businesses whose buildings exceed a certain square footage. It seems that this could be done by passing a bill requiring a sort of deposit system to be put in place by the buld manufacturers. Actually, this could be done for commercial and private consumer usage. As a conservative, I'm naturally against another beauracracy, but these aren't glass bottles we're talking about. This type of system might also encourage a quicker migration towards the LED technology Invisible Fan mentioned.

    2. In regards to nuclear power, why is it that waste storage isn't done on sight. From what I've heard, these current problems aren't that there isn't enough room, but that the old rods weren't stored properly and the radiation spread. If this were fixed, it seems that storage is a non-issue.


    Invisible Fan:
    1. In regards to water, I have heard that sea water can be desalinated on a large scale. Am I mistaken about that? If I'm not, many right of ways currently exist that could be used to construct pipelines to carry such water to anyone. Natural gas companies are already using these right of ways. If this type of program were possible, I believe this could be the source of a major economic stimulus for the country in the creation of short term construction jobs and longer term operation positions at the plants.

    2. In regards to LED's, whats the holdup? I see them everywhere, but I haven't seem them in a consumer lighting product yet. Of course, I shop at Walmart, so I might be a laggard.

    3. In regard to nuclear, with all due respect, I think we as trustworthy a country as France. If they can get around 80% of their power from nuclear, then why not the US?
     
  17. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    No such system is in place. It would probably be resisted by businesses afraid of the cost required. Naturally, I think that recycling should be mandatory - it ain't that hard to pitch some items into different containers.

    It is done on-site at the moment for the most part. The problems with this are three-fold:

    1) Room. It can be a problem. Most radioactive waste is stored in large pools to control the heat from radioactive decay. It's not cheap to do either.
    2) Containment. The argument for centralized storage locations is both for safety (minimize locations susceptible to radioactive waste) and because those locations may not always be stable. The timeframe for full-scale decay is on the order of ten thousand years, so the containment sites need to be located in such a way that minimizes risk of groundwater seepage (for example) to a minimum. Interestingly, even geologically isolated and intensely stable sites like Yucca Mtn (the most studied piece of rock in the world by FAR) seeps some amount of water - enough to cause huge environmental debates. Furthermore, the current pool method is not a long-term viable method IMO. Failures in the cooling cycle for those sites can result in heavy dispersion of radioactive material as the water superheats and explodes into steam. That's a "really bad day" scenario - but it's indicative of the limitations of on-site storage.
    3) Legislation. By law, this waste is supposed to go to a national repository, and the nuclear power companies have been paying an enormous tax to fund Yucca and the studies it entails. They have been hesitant to expand/upgrade their own storage facilities as they are still counting on the federal plan. Because of the environmental and NIMBY debates the project is so delayed now that Yucca probably could not hold all the waste currently in the US right now even if it was approved for use immediately. This has to be rectified. Storage cannot be done haphazardly or "as needed". That's a recipe for mistakes.

    Interestingly, the funds collected for Yucca from Nuclear Power taxes are currently used as a "credit" towards the national debt - making that money even harder to access since it would alter the accounting to make the debt look worse. Beauracracy can be quite ugly.
     
  18. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Storage is mostly done on site right now. The problem is that almost all were planned to be temporary sites. None are expected to last beyond a thousand years even if stored properly, and some could be potential problems should a natural disaster like an earthquake strikes. I guess it's no big deal for now, but the cost impact for future generations would be proportionately enormous compared to the costs of proper storage and long term planning. And beyond that, there is a moral responsibility not to screw over life hundreds of thousands of years from now and for it to stay that way for millions of years.

    Yucca Mountain has its nasty warts too...

    Most forms of common large scale desalination require a lot of energy to convert to drinking quality water. As we witnessed months before, energy prices are all tied together to the global market and can fluctuate month to month. We may be the coal capital of the world but that wouldn't buffer desalinated water prices. City planners, let alone state or national, like to project usage and growth in the slight long term like 5-10 years. I think you can see where this is headed.

    Perhaps we could go green and figure out methods for solar assisted desalination. Costs again are an issue because it's dirt cheap (include gov. subsidies, exclude externalities) to pipe it from the north or dig the last drops from the ground. Desalination itself also produces hazardous wastes that require long term storage, but that might not be the pressing issue until it happens on a large large scale.

    Los Angeles has to deal with this problem, and what they did was increase the quality of treated sewage water and slowly reintroduce that into the ground water supply and river banks. The idea is to let nature treat the rest while the reservoirs are recharging. But even that takes time, and conservation can only take a growth minded city planner so far. Los Angeles is still fighting for more water rights.

    Again, we're fortunate in the sense that waste is our national problem. Other countries are forced with limited water supplies because of large numbers and neighbors with large numbers, and those large numbers create consequences that reduce the supply even more. There are promising solutions to create more drinking water, but a culture of waste is unsustainable.

    Incandescents are dirt cheap, and consumers have that value priced in. If you see CFLs for around 2 bucks or less a pop, it's either the state or the energy company (through the government) paying for the difference. It is not worth it to subsidize LED bulbs at the moment.

    France's taxpayers paid for all of it. They had a head start, and they planned with scale and overall efficiency in mind. They also lack abundant natural energy resources, so they are exposed to international coal or gas fluctuations as opposed to ignoring importing and digging it up in their backyard.

    I think Americans are assuming energy corporations will foot the majority of the bill for building a reactor(s) with the government assisting lightly (it's the reverse). Then when the reactor opens, consumers can decide if nuclear is the right price by comparison shopping with coal plants or paying more for vague green energy credits. Deregulated industry or not, the state still makes the heavy decisions for you. It will be that way as long as the national energy infrastructure is wired for regional on-demand energy.

    I'm not actively opposed to nuclear, but supporting nuclear requires a national and public commitment to the technology for another 20 years and 20 more years on top of it to make that investment pay off. To me, the other issues become heavy considerations on top of the sustained long term monetary costs.
     
  19. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    what?? i can't even hear you!!! fine...whatever!!!!
    you all should really take the internetz much more seriously.
     
  20. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    Brief essay I wrote in grad school regarding desalination:

     

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