exactly why he should just be executed. you think families of 9/11 will ever have justice no matter how many times he gets tortured? if we're trying to get information from this guy, it's just not happening.
who said they were faked by obama? certainly not me. i do think there are problems with the docs, or rather with the number (183). if waterboarding is the torture that all of you have portrayed it to be, then it's inconceivable (cue Princess Bride reference) that KSM was waterboarded 183 times.
Could you please detail what those are? Here is the document. Or is your circular logic, "Is would be horrible if we did it, so we wouldn't have done it since we are the good guys." BTW, you do know that the CIA guys told the White House that he was "broken" just a couple of days into it, and the White House responded that they didn't believe it and that he needed to be waterboarded some more, right? So a large amount of that waterboarding occured after he gave them everything they got, in anticipation that "there must be something more in there". Edit: I linked to the wrong memo. The correct memo is here. Go to page 37. It is right there at the bottom of the page: [rquoter] The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydah. IG Report at 90, and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91. [/rquoter] It is pretty hard to read that as anything other than what it says. If you have some alternative explanation, I'd love to here it.
Torture is the tool of despots, drug dealers, and serial killers. The United States operates under the rule of law and due process. Right?
I should start a new thread (not), but just b/c basso has a particular interest in this topic, as noted in his signature, I honestly was happy to see record NIH spending on autism research as part of the stimulus package's science component. Good decision and good news.
I have a couple of questions for these folks. I would love some sort of answer if you could take a moment. If your answer to #1 is a or b, feel free to post that and skip the rest. What do you think about the rationale provided by people who are opposed to torture in this case? I am angry about 9/11 and/or terrorism in general and I don't care about reasons for not torturing. I don't care about reasons for not torturing because I'm not that invested in this discussion (e.g. it's just a message board, I'm too busy at work to respond, I don't care about some idiot newb asking these stupid questions, etc). I do care about others' reasons for not torturing, I just disagree. (If you answer c I'd love answers to the rest of the questions.) Could you state in your own words what you think the general argument against torture is in this case? It is stated by some defending torture that these particular scum deserve torture because of crimes they've committed. Do you think it is ok to torture all terrorists we are 100% sure murdered innocent civilians? What about all terrorists that we are 99.9% sure about? If someone from another country held an American who they were 100% sure murdered innocent civilians (use the same definition you used for #2), and they tortured that person, would you be ok with that? Would it matter whether you were also 100% sure that person was guilty or only 50% sure they were guilty? Sorry for the length of the post, I just am curious about the differing mindsets and I was hoping that if just a couple people would indulge me in honestly answering some direct questions I could get more insight into those differences. Thanks in advance.
183 times they stopped the water boarding when he told them Iraq had wmd and Al Qaeda met with Sadam frequently. You learn the right answer quickly when water boarded!!!
All the Johnny Go-Government types, who believe absolutely anything the government and mainstream media tells them. I'd love to hear one argument (ethics aside) in favor of torture, as it pertains to saving the lives of Americans in the future. It seems the attitude in America is curing the ailment, rather than preventing it to begin with. Slaughtering millions of people in foreign countries for decades is somehow OK, but when 911 occurs as retaliation, everyone acts surprised and outraged, as if the lives of Americans are more valuable than Iraqis or anyone else's.
Agreed here. I am a republican, but to paraphrase Batman Begins, our compassion is what seperates us from them (the terrorists). Using their techniques while potentially bringing about the demise of one of them, only serves to instill thier PoV of the "Great American Satan." So no, I cant go along party lines here.
lmao @ the people that said whats the big deal with this this is not torture? your son does this too? well why dont you try letting the guards do this to you with the impression of you being a terriost......you are full of crap dude...i so want to see that happen to u and see u scream and say it hurts now...
Likewise, I'd like to hear from the anti-torture camp what non-torture technique, if any, works in interrogation.
A beautiful post. The only thing I'd add is that when this country lowers itself to the level of our enemies, it also puts our service men and women in greater danger if they are captured in the line of duty. If we are seen as promoting terrorism as a tool used by the state, what would prevent an adversary from torturing our own people? What moral high ground can we stand upon? And what does it say to the world when we ignore the rule of law and let those responsible go free?
Hell, I might say I planned the attacks if I was tortured relentlessly with a confession being the only way to stop them.
I've posted articles on it before. The tortured suspects were already giving up useful information as a result of repoire building techniques. And these are from the CIA. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7847405.stm
I'm just fine with the US waterboarding this pig just for the sake of waterboarding him. Any info he spills is just bonus. In fact, I tend to think waterboarding is not enough. It's hardly any physical pain. Just gasping for air. Supposed to "scare" him. I'd like to see them use tacticts that really drive home the point of "I don't give a rats ass if you talk or not, after what you did to my fellow Americans, I'm just here to make you bleed." Cheers.
The techniques that they used before they started torturing, largely derived from law enforcement, which actually did yield useful information. Honestly, why don't you ask the FBI or your local police department? They don't make a policy of torture yet are able to extract confessions all the time.
