Maybe some of us just disagree on what ELITE offense is. Is Martin as good as Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Rose, CP3, Deron Williams, Amare, Durant, Nash, Aldridge, Griffin or Pierce offensively? (Yes, I intentionally left Melo off the list since people hate him and it would skew the answers/results)
I think you have to make the comparison to others playing the same position. Since Wade and Kobe are the only 2's on your list, no, he isnt as good as either of them.
No offense, but if I am to judge by some of your posts that I've read recently, there might be a clog or two in that "mental filter" of yours. EDIT: BTW what does "no offense" even mean? That was obviously offensive!
It seems as if we pretty much agree completely on what Martin brings to the table. What I don't understand is why you don't value the things that you admit he does well much at all. When Dirk poured in 48 pts on 15 shots, I was thinking the same thing Hollinger tweeted, Dirk is having the ultimate Kevin Martin game. A game which embodied efficiency at its finest, the game that set every analyst off on where to put dirk on the all time list. Comparing 1 of the best and all around elite scorers performance to lowly old kevin martin. What dirk did and does often and what Martin does consistently is not easy to do. I will stop you right here before you accuse me of saying martin is as good as dirk, not what I am trying to say at all. Just that what these elite guys get praised for doing sometimes, our guy does differently, but similarly on a consistent basis. Dirk obviously differentiates himself with height and a more complete or "elite" offensive game, but the end product of martins and dirks scoring game is the point total and shot attempts is always going to be elite. I just don't agree that you can't win with Kevin Martin. I really believe Lowry and Patterson are 2 great young pieces to start along with Kevin. I love what scola gives us, but I feel like with patterson as his replacement and whatever we can get in return in a trade would do more for this team than a risk on an unknown in a kevin martin deal. All we need is to find our 3 and 5. I can't say that I know for sure that none of these guys in this draft could turn into a franchise guy, but I just don't like the odds at all, especially when I view us as much closer to contention than you or LTF do.
I do value those things, and in turn Martin. In fact I value him so much I think he could get you a #2 pick! That is a proposition that many scoffed at when I first brought it up a few weeks ago. Dirk didn't have a Kevin Martin game. He had an efficient game. Now unless Kevin Martin has a monopoly on all efficient games going forward, Hollinger is being a little disingenuous when he says that. The difference between Dirk and Martin, besides simply being better like you pointed out, is the skillset I have already mentioned. The one that separates the elite from the efficient. When the offense bogs down you can dump the ball down(or up) to Dirk as a last resort and have him create. The truly offensive elite can do that at a high level and carry their teams in a tight situation. That is what MAKES them elite. You can't get into the conversation without it. Also it isn't as simple as just look at point total and shot attempts. This is what flawed statistic will trap you with. For instance, Player A takes 10 wideopen jumpshots and makes 5, scoring 10 points on 10 shots. Player B takes 10 off balanced turnarounds with a hand in his face and makes 4, scoring 8 points on 10 shots. Player A is not the better offensive player, because if you gave him the same shots Player B took, he might make 0 out of 10. Kobe Bryant might not be as statistically efficient as Kevin Martin, but that is because he has the pressure of taking all of their bail out shots, and when he isn't bailing them out he is shooting with a hand in his face because no team is leaving him alone. If Kevin Martin was guarded the same way, you can count on his efficiency taking a hit. I never said that you can't win with Kevin Martin. Just not as your best player. And by win I mean the championship. You are free to disagree but that is my opinion. As for needing a 3 and 5 and being close, I addressed this in another thread. I think we are close too. I think we are a 3 and 5 away from the Memphis Grizzlies or Den Nuggets or Atl Hawks. Solid teams who have solid rosters who will compete, and ultimately never contend. We might be close to that but it won't lead us anywhere in the end. I believe in order to truly contend you need to get that first piece first(franchise player), before decking it out with all the overachieving role players our team is full of. And in order to get that first piece we have to take a step back first. And trading Kevin Martin for some potential and upside is the first step in taking that step back to step forward later. Yeah that's right, it's a lot of damn steps! See, there's no hard feelings and I have nothing against Martin. It just happens that he is part of the steps. Maybe I am wrong and it doesn't have to be this way. We shall see.
Well I guess we also disagree on what the #2 pick in this draft is worth as well. I understand the value of being able to hit the difficult shot, I just don't see how you penalize a guy for taking the best possible shot when that is the point of basketball. I don't want my guy having to take 10 highly difficult inefficient shots during a game, if that's the case I think there is a bigger problem with the offense. And when I say win I do mean the championship. The roster right now playing an entire season next year would be as good as the atlanta, memphis, denver group you mention. With the upgrades at the 3 and 5 I hope we make I believe we would be in contention for a championship. I think a package of scola and some of our assets can net us an upgrade at one of our positions of need. How much of an upgrade I'm not sure, but I don't doubt morey's ability to get great value out of his trades. I'm not suggesting this is going to be an instant fix and that we currently have all the assets necessary to make all the deals to get us to contention. I'd just rather wait and see how much of steal we may snag in this draft without giving up a core piece, as well as let our other young guys and roster as a whole get another season to develop together and see where we are at mid season or next off season when the real draft class is coming in. That is the difference in our opinion. Every time you respond I feel like you are saying you agree with me on almost everything, but then you bring in a different angle to disagree with. You agree he is extremely efficient but a reference to him being a guy who is routinely efficient is "a little disingenuous". I get it, he isn't one of the 6-8 great offensive players in the league right now, but he is still damn good and in the top 12 in terms of sheer offensive production. He himself admits he wants to be a #2 guy and is paid accordingly. When there are only 30 teams and your 2nd best guy is a legit top 12 offensive weapon I think you have a chance to win big. You agree you can win with him and that upgrades at the 3 and 5 would do a lot to help us win, just not to the degree I do. Only time will tell what happens and if either of the two things we suggest even play out like we hope. Bottom line, I just want to win and if we do it how I suggest or end up taking your route, as long as we end up winning I will be happy.
I don't penalize him for taking the best possible shot, I commend him for knowing what he is and isn't capable of. What I do penalize him for is his inability to take, or rather make with elite consistency, the non-best possible shots. I don't want my guy taking highly difficult shots either if they could simply work in the offense and get a better shot. The problem is late in the shot clock and late in games and ESPECIALLY late in a 7 game series "working in the offense to get a better shot" becomes increasingly difficult. And more and more it boils down to elite shot makers making difficult shots. This is because teams become so well scouted, especially in the playoffs, that your opponent most likely already know every play you are about to run. That backdoor play for the open layup you run will have less and less room to pull off because they all see it coming. When that happens, it is inevitable that your offense will become increasingly reliant on individual talent as opposed to team play. This is why superstars win. Because when **** hits the fan, they are the ones that stand out and show their true value. It is not that I WANT my guys to take difficult shots. It is simply necessary whenever the offense inevitably bogs down. And those who can take difficult shots in those situations and make them at an elite level are the only ones that can claim to be elite offensively. Martin is very good at his niche, but when it comes to offense as a whole he is not elite because he lacks this trait.
Maybe I am coming off as overly critical of Martin even though I've repeated that I do think he is valuable. Don't get me wrong, just because I don't think he is ELITE offensively doesn't mean I think he is "fool's gold" like some around here. No, his offense is indeed very helpful for the team and more than makes up for what he lacks on the defensive end. Overall he is a net positive on the court. Just so we're clear.
Like I said, some people just don't understand basketball. Daryl Morey, JVG, Bill Simmons, Henry Abbott, Marc Stein, Kelly Dwyer you ask any one of them and they will all agree that yes, Kevin Martin is an elite offensive player. Its right up there with water being wet and ice being cold. The only ones who disagree watch Sports Center highlights for in-depth analysis. With Cxbby, how can you say you value KM enough to trade him for a top 2 pick and yet he's not elite offensively? Being elite offensively is the only reason KM stays on the court, take that away from him and he has almost no good qualities. Yet somehow, this player who is even elite at the one thing he does do is going to get us a top 2 pick? It doesn't make sense. Not only that, in this draft the top 2 pick has almost the same value as the top 6 pick simply because no one knows if these guys will become superstars. All of them have nasty question marks, even the top pick (Irving), isn't projected to become better than Wall, CP3 or WB. If I'm going to trade KM I'd rather do it when the draft isn't so risky.
