In what planet is Carmelo Anthony elite offensively? He's been so elite offensively the Nuggets went on a tear without him and NY actually had a worse record post Melo trade Your "clutch situations" is only 1 possession that may or may not happen at the end of the game. Even in the situations where it does happen, Melo's conversion rate isn't that far from the average NBA player. I guarantee if we had Melo instead of KM we'd have a worse record this season. Also Melo isn't great at pick and rolls, can't create for others and doesn't have a 3 point shot. Did I mention he's making 2x what Martin makes? Fact is KM has been elite offensively this season, he's definitely in the top 3 and a strong case could be made for top 1 offensive player this year. If you can't even realize that then you just don't know b-ball.
What are you talking about? KM isn't rip hamilton or ray allen, he doesn't come off screens and take the open jumpshot. Look at how many times he gets to the line, you don't get fouls by coming off screens and taking catch-and-shoots.
Earth. Let me know when you land, I'll show you around. Wrong. Again. The clutch stats I looked at were from 82games.com, which takes into account the last five minutes of games. Martin's FG% and 3PT% plummet in the final five minutes of games. The main difference with our argument is ability to recognize talent. Obvious, you don't have this ability if you think Martin is comparable to Melo. 32 out of 32 GMs would take Carmelo over Martin -- it's not even close. In fact, it's such a no brainer that not even David Kahn could screw it up. I get it, you really like Kevin Martin, he's a Rocket, root for him no matter what. But there's more to being an "elite offensive player" than PPG and TS%. How can you call someone an elite offensive player when you can't even give him the ball in the final minutes for him to take over? I'm proud of your Rockets loyalty but amazed at your inability to see the facts for what they are. Martin is a good offensive player -- elite he is not.
Count me in as someone who doesn't know b-ball as well. Not everything can be explained away by a few percentages. I won't lie, one of the main attractions the Rockets have for me(besides being the Rockets) is Morey and this new statistical approach towards basketball. Not because I think a few numbers hold the answer to every question. In fact the opposite. Too many people are misled and misuse statistics which gives it a bad name. I am only intrigued because I see a smart guy in Morey who seems to know HOW to use his numbers, and when to rely on other factors. I believe in the end that will create an edge, as opposed to blindly reading percentages off of a spreadsheet. With that in mind, I think this is case in point. Martin is the more efficient player than Melo in almost any statistical measure. But if you put that in perspective and watch the games as well, you will see that Martin is only efficient because he only takes efficient shots. That is not a knock, in fact you could call it a strength. However, efficient shots are not ever present in the game where whenever you need one, one is available. It takes a lot of effort, as an entire team, to create one of those. There are many times, especially in close late games, when those shots are simply impossible to come by. Carmelo on the other hand is a superior shot creator. His %s might be lower, but the advantage is you can dump it into him at any given point and he can reproduce those %s. That is the reason shot creation is at a premium in the league, and players with that ability are compensated accordingly. The fact that Denver got better and NY got worse after the trade might simply(and logically) mean that NY gave up too much. To somehow imply that Melo is a bad player from that, or that Martin is superior, is a logical fallacy.
quit talkin bout trading k-mart this dude was a big impact for us for the season...dude average close to kobe and durant and etc...pretty much like a superstar he just don't get enough respect. but hes a scorer which we needed..and drawl fouls...like durant..but we need a center inside that's what made us loose ...size...quit hating on k-mart..average 23.5 ppg...cmon now..lol wow..unless we get a big super star back but i doubt that. every super star is doin good with tehre team now..miami. and la. and durant..i don't see noone else..SG is good as him as a reg SG not all-star with him and lowry..and Good back up courtney lee.
Fallacy How can Rondo be an elite defensive player but not get any blocked shots? How can Howard be a elite defensive player but not get any steals? Martin is an elite offensive player. Martin is not a superstar who can take over games.
"KM isn't an elite offensive player". My oh my, how the intelligence of his board has fallen recently.
Non-fallacy. Dwight Howard and Rajon Rondo can still affect the game in it's biggest moments. Kevin Martin does not. If you could come up with a comparison where an elite defensive player's best attributes fade when the game matters, you'd have a lot better argument. Something like, "Dwight Howard is elite defensively despite him not being able to affect the game defensively in the last five minutes." Good luck making that argument! If Kevin Martin is an elite offensive player, what is Kevin Durant? Super elite? Wade? Uber elite? Are we really putting them in the same category offensively? I certainly hope not. I like to think of Martin on an offensive tier below Carmelo, Durant, Wade, etc.. but then again, so do most GMs. "Superstars take over games..." Take over games.. offensively? Superstars take their offense to another level and win their team the game? How is that possible if they're on the same elite level as Martin? Shouldn't Martin also be able to do the same if he's just as offensively skilled as these players? If he's not as offensively skilled as Wade, Durant.. why is he considered elite? Shouldn't he be a tier below then? Kevin Martin is what Corey Maggette would have become if he learned to shoot. Great offensive player, but he has no business being labeled as "elite." Elite offensive players are the ones you can't stop from scoring, no matter whose guarding them. The only thing Kevin Martin is elite at is drawing fouls and shooting free throws. It's amazing how much Rockets fans continually overrate their own players.
Fallacy? More like rhetoric. Rondo can be an elite defensive player without getting blocks because the value of defense is not solely measured in blocks. Howard can be an elite defensive player without getting steals because the value of defense is not solely measured in steals. Martin is not necessarily an elite offensive player because the value of offense isn't solely measured by TS%. Tyson Chandler is the most efficient offensive player in the league and tops in TS%. That isn't because he is an elite offensive player, it's because he gets a whole lot of dunks. There's your fallacy for you. The value of defense is stopping your opponent. Not how. The value of offense is getting buckets. Not when. Next time you want to make a point try less fancy words you don't understand and inane questions that don't even make any sense.
You are correct, KM is elite since he's among the best bucket-getters in the league, as defined be any metric.
Apparently so are Tyson Chandler, Brian Cardinal, DeAndre Jordan, Ronny Turiaf and Ryan Hollins. Apparently you are not very good at reading. Leave the "metrics" business to people who actually know how to use them.
haha, aleluia, people are understanding LTF true colors. This is not about selling high on KM, this about not recognizing what he is compared to what you can have from the SG position. Just the fact that he goes to the line that much per game, MAKES EVERYONE BETTER, it´s like dishing an assist. Now every single foul puts you on the FT line and if I am a player, I know I can make some "bad decisions" (if there is no other solution) by attacking the bucket strong and getting soft calls like this league is all about right now. Say that you don´t like his style of b-ball, say that he doesn´t dominate a game with the ball in his hand, say that he is not elite defender, but please don´t act like this guy is not a top 5 SG in the league and you want to trade him for a very talented PF in college, that will have to make huge adjustments to play the SF in the NBA, JUST BECAUSE HE WILL BE A #2 PICK. PeAcE
Carmelo elite offensively?? More like an elite chucker. You're bound to score points if you throw up 20+ shots a game.
chandler = 5.5 fga/game jordan = 4.3 fga/game hollins = 3.1 fga/game turiaf = 2.5 fga/game cardinal = 1.8 fga/game martin = 15.8 fga/game Don't get me wrong, I agree that Martin is a different player than the traditional great all around scorers and probably is on a level of his own right now just below the current greats, but you shouldn't twist his inability to finish games like the greats or that he relies on FT's as the defining shortcoming that deems him unworthy. There just isn't a good comparison for him, but just because it isn't normal doesn't mean it isn't statistically just as effective overall as some of the other offensive machines in the league. Martin's downfalls are obvious but his scoring efficiency at the volume he shoots IS elite. There is no other way to slice it. There are plenty of people I would rather have taking the last shot, but there aren't a ton of guys I would rather have to give me the scoring I need without dominating the ball and taking a ton of shots away from others. People hate on how he lives at the free throw line, but other than the fact that a point is a point and when you shoot 90% why wouldn't you want to live at the foul line.... I have heard JVG and Hubie Brown talking about the importance of having a guy who can get to the line. How important it is for not only your offense to keep the scoreboard moving, but your defense to get that rest and the ability to get back and be set for the next possession. Of course it doesn't help when you don't have a lot of defensive ability to begin with, but still a part of martins game that helps more than you might think. He obviously isn't capable of being your best player, but what he brings is extremely valuable. I just don't see why getting rid of him is so high on some peoples list, I understand the want to take a gamble to change the direction of the franchise, but to me giving up Martin for even the #2 pick this year exceeds the amount I would want to risk on what I could realistically expect in return.
First off, if you're going to try to insult me, at least do me the courtesy of learning how to spell Hallelujah. My true colors? What are you talking about? This is exactly about selling high on Martin, but naturally the discussion breaks down into other areas. People are calling Martin elite offensively -- that's absurd. Durant is elite. Wade is elite. Martin isn't anywhere near their level offensively. Again, nobody is saying to trade him for a #2 pick because it's a #2 pick -- the player is Derrick Williams. I've had a few back-and-forth discussions with you on here where you run to hide instead of responding back, like the Martin-for-superstar trade you seem to think we can make. I told you earlier how several NBA scouts think Derrick Williams has superstar potential. You came back by saying you agree he could be a superstar at SF but moving him to SF is a "huge gamble," which was your opinion and not backed up by anything credible, so I didn't bother responding. Martin is not an elite SG. Top five in the league? Give me Kobe, Wade, Ginobli, Eric Gordon, Monta Ellis, Joe Johnson, Iguodala before Martin. Remember, you're arguing best SGs in the league, not the best contracts. Oops, that wasn't about selling high on Martin either -- but look where the discussion took us. Please don't act like I have a secret agenda in anything involving Kevin Martin. I think highly of him enough to believe a team would be willing to trade a high draft pick for him. That's not exactly an everyday occurrence -- teams generally don't trade their top draft picks unless they're only moving down a few spots. I think we can agree that Martin is not an overall elite offensive player as has been suggested, but as far as "efficiency" goes, he's in that elite company. Being a top-tier efficient player and being a top-tier offensive player are not the same thing, as evidenced by my good friend Corey Maggette.
Martin can affect a game and does. He affects the final few minutes the same way he affects the first 40. If the final play is a perimeter screen and roll a wing player takes the final 3 pt shot, Howards d will have effect whatsoever. Doesn't mean he is not elite. It's just the circumstances of the game either mesh with skillset at any given moment or they don't. You get way to hung up on words. Everybody knows what Kevin Martin is. He's a good player with an unusual niche. He is one of the best in the game at putting the ball in the hoop. He is not a shot creater, or a defender. I think most people have pretty good handle on what Martins value is, I think you might be selling him short.
Sorry I have enough common sense to be able to put mental filters on my stats like "is a shooter" and "shoots a lot", I didn't think I'd have to explain that lol.
Don´t be mad bro, no need for it. I will not even question what players you put in front of KM, just hilarious, I don´t even know how you missed Tony alen or Mayo, I guess a couple of good performances are enough to be better then KM. You see, I don´t have to back up my statement that DW has only superstar potential at the 3 you know why??? Because I am not the one exposing this sell high on Martin. YOU have to back up your theory of trading him for the 2nd pick, saying, why would you trade Martin for DW, not the other way around. Your theory is based on KM flaws, where are the DW goods??? I know I know "we all know what KM is", but WHAT IS DW GOING TO BE AT THE 3 SPOT??? Yeah, we know you always liked KM as a player "I've had a few back-and-forth discussions with you on here where you run to hide instead of responding back" ????? PeAcE
You just lost credibility right there. Monta Ellis is a low efficiency high volume shooter who hurts his team with his crappy decision making. Most overrated player in the league. He can't rebound or pass either and is undersized on defense. Same story with Joe Johnson. Enough with your anti-Martin agenda. And no, we can't agree Martin isn't elite offensively. He ranked SECOND in points per 48 minutes overall while ranking FOURTH in TS% among shooting guards. You might not like it, but he's elite offensively. Enough is enough!
I never said he was unworthy. Just that he isn't elite. He is a great player to have to compliment and play off of the player you build around. And I do not care how effective he is statistically. All I care is about is how effective he is, period. I love statistics and believe it is the next(current?) frontier in basketball. The reason why it is a frontier at all is because so few understand how to use it. Too many publicly available stats are far too flawed to base conclusions off of. For instance, the discussion we are currently having. It just doesn't make sense to judge a player's offensive ability solely based on efficiency. Efficiency is affected by how the basket is scored. If a player only shoots when there is a wide open dunk, he will have an artificially boosted efficiency. However, when the game is on the line and a basket is needed, and there is no wide open dunk available, this player is useless. Obviously that is an extreme example. What makes Kevin Martin so efficient is in part due to his good outside shot, combined with a quick first step. But mostly, and most importantly, it is his understanding of his own strengths and weaknesses. It isn't that he will only take open dunks, but he will only take shots that are, well, efficient for him. This is not a bad trait to have at all. In fact many players should learn from it. However, when a basket is needed at the most crucial time, Martin is often rendered less useful because those efficient shots are not as readily available. The ability to take and make inefficient shots, or "make something out of nothing", is part of a player's offensive ability as well. In fact it is deciding aspect that separates the elite from... well, the efficient. While Martin is certainly elite in his efficiency, that is only a piece of the puzzle when judging a players entire offensive repertoire. The fact that Martin lacks the most important piece is why his eliteness, or is it 1337ness, only extends to the spreadsheet, not the hardwood.
