Its not neccasary a bad thing to be selfish. If your like AI and your basically the teams only threat to score than he needs that mentality that I have to do this alone. If he didnt have that attitude than the sixers would have never made the finals nor would AI have his MVP. You want your best players to be selfish to an extent, just not to the point when it hurts team chemistry.
There is something to that...The reverse happened in Toronto. Carter was always a natural team player, and coming from UNC emphasized that...But when he got here, and had nothing, he quickly became The Man, and the team benefitted. They and he rose together through the league's standings. Then he gets hurt, tries to play hurt, sits out, and the team drops from 1 game out of 1st in the East to almost out of playoff contention. Trying to revive them, even though not healthy, he comes back and plays hurt...but when your number one guy is hurt, the team suffers, and they play badly. The team decides that he's only hurting himself, so they sit him...The Raptors then have a stretch where they play 9 put of 11 teams with sub .500 records, and the only two decent teams they face they play in Toronto, and their missing key players. All of this results in the team reeling off 11 wins in a row, and AD carries them, and on into the playoffs, where they play scrappy, and push it to 6 games, but lose to the Pistons. Here's where the problem starts; the media, who has been looking to bash him pretty much since he made all their predictions and guarantees look bad by staying in Canada, make a lot out if the fact that the Raps played bad when Carter was playing and good when he wasn't. No mention of the fact that he was playing on one leg, and on another that required serious surgery in the offseason, nor the fact that the Carterless Raptors played a string of stiffs...just " Hey, do the Raptors need Carter at all? Are they better off without him? Maybe they should trade him." Soon rumours are running ramapant that Carter, easily among the top 5-10 players in the league when healthy, is on the block..as we now know it was completely and utterly untrue... ..but some Raptors, especially Antonio Davis, have enjoyed all the attention and accolades during the offseason that Carter normally received, and by the time the new season begins, Carter has no idea of how to play...Is he still The Man, or should he look to get everyone involved? Lenny Wilken is no help, he basically washes his hands... Now under any other coach, it's made pretty clear: Vince Carter is our meal ticket, he will be the focus of our offense. For a player more selfish than Carter, it wouldn't have mattered, he'd have demanded the ball, and laughed at the idea that a superstar scorer should become, instead, just another player. But Carter has never been selfish, always been naturally a team player, and he was lost. Reporters who are around the team a lot say that he had no idea of how the Rops wanted him to play, and he played showed that. One night he'd go out and score 30, the next he'd be looking to make plays, score 12 and dish out 8 assists...it was all over the place, and people who didn't know what was going on looked to that as a sign that Carter was overrated. This year Kevin O'Neal, as any other coach worth anything would have done, has said Carter is the guy, period. And for all of you who have been calling him overrated, a has been, all flash no substance, and forgotten what he did when he was healtyh, watch out...he's back, and he's hea;thy, and he's gonna be the player he always was, plus now, for the 1st time, he's got an attitude. But that goes to show you how for a player, particularly a star player, being unselfish can be a bad thing...If you're the teams's star, and you're not a point guard, you should be looking for your shot. If Carter had had Iverson's attitude, he would never have gotten into that funk...
Be selfish? Shoot more? Really? 2002-03 Sixer FG %ages T. MacCulloch - 51.7% K. Thomas - 48.2% K Van Horn - 48.2% E. Snow - 45.2% D. Coleman - 44.8% A. McKie - 42.9% A. Iverson - 41.4% More shots are "created" by ball and player movement than 1on1 play. Iverson is the largest reason for Larry Brown's departure. And Iverson didn't average all that many assists on this summers' Olympic qualifying team - 30 assists in 8 games = 3.75 apg. I guess I should confess that Iverson is far and away my least favorite NBA player.
Code: 10 11 12 13 14 15 4 5 OPPONENT DATE SCORE W/L BIBBY, Mik MARTIN, Ke ALLEN, Ray DUNCAN, Ti BRAND, Elt JEFFERSON, IVERSON, A KIDD, Jaso -------------------- -------- ------- ---- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------- vs Brazil 8/20/03 110-76 W 11- 1- 7 2- 2- 0 13- 0- 1 17- 6- 3 17- 6- 1 2- 3- 2 10- 4- 4 5- 1- 4 vs Dominican Republi 8/21/03 111-73 W 8- 4- 5 13- 5- 2 12- 5- 7 6- 3- 3 5- 4- 1 6- 0- 0 7- 4- 2 4- 5-10 vs Venezuela 8/22/03 98-69 W 13- 2- 0 3- 5- 1 4- 4- 2 13-13- 5 10- 3- 0 5- 1- 2 14- 0- 7 2- 6- 4 vs Virgin Islands 8/23/03 113-55 W 9- 1- 6 14- 7- 3 10- 6- 2 DNP 7- 5- 1 7- 2- 4 17- 4- 4 0- 3-10 vs Canada 8/25/03 111-71 W 2- 2- 9 2- 7- 3 16- 1- 3 16- 4- 2 11- 5- 3 3- 2- 6 28- 1- 3 2- 2- 3 vs Argentina 8/26/03 94-86 W 11- 4- 5 6- 0- 1 6- 2- 1 19- 9- 6 2- 3- 0 0- 1- 0 13- 1- 5 4- 3- 7 vs Mexico 8/27/03 96-69 W 10- 2- 4 4- 6- 4 8- 1- 4 16- 6- 2 5- 5- 1 4- 3- 2 13- 4- 3 5- 1- 2 vs Puerto Rico 8/28/03 91-65 W 6- 2- 2 4- 3- 1 9- 2- 0 16- 9- 4 9- 2- 2 2- 3- 1 12- 2- 2 3- 3- 2 vs Puerto Rico 8/30/03 87-71 W 6- 2- 3 8- 2- 1 15- 7- 1 14- 8- 3 2- 3- 0 2- 0- 0 DNP 4- 2- 2 vs Argentina 8/31/03 106-73 W 11- 1- 7 6- 3- 0 13- 3- 1 23-14- 3 4- 3- 0 6- 2- 2 DNP 5- 1- 6 6 7 8 9 OPPONENT DATE SCORE W/L McGRADY, T O'NEAL, Je CARTER, Vi COLLISON, -------------------- -------- ------- ---- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ---------- ----------- vs Brazil 8/20/03 110-76 W 15- 3- 3 4- 2- 2 14- 3- 1 0- 1- 1 vs Dominican Republi 8/21/03 111-73 W 17- 0- 1 14- 7- 4 15- 0- 2 4- 3- 2 vs Venezuela 8/22/03 98-69 W 16- 3- 5 5- 5- 1 13- 1- 1 DNP vs Virgin Islands 8/23/03 113-55 W 10- 2- 3 12- 2- 4 14- 3- 1 13- 5- 0 vs Canada 8/25/03 111-71 W DNP 8- 6- 3 16- 1- 3 7- 0- 2 vs Argentina 8/26/03 94-86 W DNP 22-10- 3 11- 2- 0 DNP vs Mexico 8/27/03 96-69 W DNP 11- 7- 1 12- 2- 5 8- 2- 1 vs Puerto Rico 8/28/03 91-65 W 6- 2- 1 10- 9- 0 9- 6- 0 5- 0- 1 vs Puerto Rico 8/30/03 87-71 W 12- 4- 6 14-10- 2 10- 3- 0 0- 1- 0 vs Argentina 8/31/03 106-73 W 12- 6- 2 12- 4- 4 12- 3- 1 2- 3- 2 So he ranks behind only Mike Bibby and Jason Kidd when it comes too assists? And he had nearly double that of Ray Allen who is also a shooting guard. Stop drinking the haterade.
I would have never thought of it before you posted it, but that is exactly right. The Mavs used to be HIS team, without a doubt. He's quite respectable, now that I think of it. But selfish, I have to say Jordan. He's not in the NBA right now, but he's the most selfish player all-time and I had to say that. He created each and every one of these players that y'all have listed as your most selfish.
Wow, that's amazing... Finley is my favorite player still in the league, and even I forgot about him. Yeah, now that you mention it, he probably is the most unselfish player in the league. Of course it goes without saying that I agree with your Jordan point as well.
The reason Philly doesn't have another good offensive player is because Iverson runs them all out. Kukoc, Tim Thomas, STackhouse, etc. Iverson ran em all out because he wanted to be able to jack up about 30 shots per game.
And this proves what? That he doesn't shoot as much on a team of "peers"? Well, for Team USA Iverson had the eighth best FG% on the team!!!. But he took the 3rd most shots per minute played surpassed only by McGrady and Duncan. And that he hands out assists when playing with peers? Not really. Let's look deeper than your "only surpassed by Bibby and Kidd" logic. On a per minute basis, Iverson dished out .164 assists per minute played with Team USA. This compares nearly identically to his .130 assists per minute played with the Sixers. Oh, and is it worth mentioning that on Team USA Iverson was right up there with Kidd in TO's/minute? http://www.usabasketball.com/seniormen/03_molyq_stats.html How thoughtless of me to suggest that Iverson should take less than his current 30% of every Sixer FGA when he has the teams 6th best FG%. It must have been that "haterade" you mentioned... Or perhaps you should stop drinking the "blinderade".
I don't know how you could say Iverson is selfish. Who would you want shooting for the Sixers? It's not like Iverson can't get assists, but he carried the team the last few years. I think it's more a credit to his talent than saying he's selfish. Now not wanting to make your life easier by passing to a 7'6 skilled center is another story.
The 2002-03 Sixers won 41 games when Iverson was their sole high point scorer. The Sixers lost 27 games when Iverson was their sole high scorer. Average PPG in the 41 wins = 31.4 Average PPG in the 27 losses = 27.7 Delta = 3.7 PPG In games where Iverson was the sole high scorer: Number of losses with Iverson => 31 PPG = 8 Number of wins with Iverson =< 27 PPG = 11 And some of ya'all want Iverson to be more selfish? It's still a team game.
Thanks for that take on VC, Macbeth. Hadn't considered that perspective. And good observations by all on Finlay. Not sure many others would have accepted that role. Most selfish? Though i'm a fan of any 6' 165 lb guy who battles as hard as he does, have to agree with Iverson. But...that's just the way he play, and it works for him.
HaHa a myth, nice try, your full of it, he brings the greatest leadership of all, instilling confidence into his surrounding players. He'll do a great job of this in Chicago, leading the Bulls to the playoffs, can't promise too much else after that. Regarding the Houston and Portland situation, he was being a man, standing up for what he believed in. He told the truth as everyone saw it but no one except for him was brave enough to say. If not for the incompetence of the Blazer's Gm (Whitsitt) who knows how many titles Pip would have by now. Also I didn't bring up Pip being a team leader, simply the model of unselfishness but since you brought it up, yes Pippen is a great leader. Just look at the Portland team last season, when Pippen was at starting pg, they had an awesome record. Even at this the end of his career he still had a huge impact on a pretty good team, if he could have just stayed healthy the Blazers would have made it further.
Question: When he pouted, sulked, and ultimately refused to take the floor in the final seconds of a playoff game simply because the coach was designing a ply where someone other than him would shoot, which was that: A) The greatest leadership of all B) Instilling confidence into surrounding players C) Being a man D) Telling the truth as everyone sees it E) Being the model of unselfishness F) All of the above Just wanted to get your take...
Pippen is one of the most unselfish and it pisses me off, I wish he'd quit playing the martyr and start trying to take over games on the offensive end.
You didn't say he was a team leader, but you did say he was a team player. But NOW you are saying he is a leader....as a matter of fact - to use your words - he brings the greatest leadership of all. I won't disagree that he's unselfish WITH THE BALL. But he's a big whiny baby when his team loses. He pouts, throws fits, temper tantrums, and demands trades and places blame on everyone but himself. You, pipdady, are obviously wearing Pippen colored glasses, hence your name, so it's also obvious you have zero objectivity on the matter. Your homerism is ridiculous. Pippen was being a man, when he whined and made fun of Barkley's butt being big and equating that and other things to the lack of playoff success? If you're a leader, and team player, then you put the weight of the team on YOUR shoulders, and your team lives and dies by YOU. The responsibility for its success weighs heavily on YOU as the team leader. Pippen only spoke of his leadership abilities, and then when the team faltered, he pointed his finger to everyone else.
MacBeth to answer your question, obviously that was none of the above but that was simply one in game instance. I'm pretty sure most people would be pretty upset if they carried their team to the playoffs, if the team was there primarily because of them. And then to not have the last play called for you, I think Pip earned that last shot and I would not blame him for sitting out. And lets not get started with your boy Carter, Pip over VC anyday, enough said. Hoop-T your right about my absolute appreciation of Pippen, but I am willing to accept the negatives of his game. The biggest of course is his jumper but he for the most part has found ways to get around that. Most of the negatives which you said about Pippen he does after his stint is over with the team or after he realizes he has no future with the team. So I guess you could say he doesn't go about things the right way but he gets the end result. On a serious side not, perhaps I do not view these characteristics as that awful because I display alot of the same ones on the court. Most probably view these as detrimental to the team but I think it only comes up when a team loses. And if this is the case, the team should be broken up because they are losing.
Your first paragraph to macbeth tells me all I need to know. You don't blame him for sitting out? Really? Poor underappreciated Scottie Pippen didn't get a play called for him in crunch time. Well gosh Scottie, maybe the opposing team would expect you to get the ball, and will be keying on you, so we should use you as a decoy to get a shot for Kukoc. Or gosh Scottie, maybe the coach is the coach for a reason, and due to matchups or other factors, the Bulls have a better shot to win this way. If he had not questioned his coach, and done what he was supposed to, and been a TEAM PLAYER.....I wouldn't be having this argument with you right now. As for the other stuff, you admitted he doesn't go about things the right way, and that's all I was looking for. But this is again not behavior representative of a team player, nor a leader.
Well ideally the play should have been drawn up for Pippen, if he is being over played or double teamed, let him use his discretion to pass it to the open man. He would not force up the bad shot, if someone has a better shot than him, he would clearly give it up. He would do his favorite thing which is create for someone else, as for the anger, its easy to say upon retrospect that you would not be that upset, but its a heat of the moment type of situation. They won that game but I can't help but think that Jackson's bad call hurt them for the remainder of the playoffs.
You can play what if all day as far as what Pippen and his discretion may have done (just as easily, I can speculate that if he had gotten his whiny ass off the bench and gone in, he may have screwed it up). All speculation. Pippen had a right to be upset, sure. But he had ZERO right to disobey his coach, and deliberately undermine the very concept of team. Be upset - fine, your duty as team leader- team player, etc. is to shut your piehole, run the play that was called, go into the locker room happy. You're telling me that it was a bad call, yet they won the game? That's the most ridiculous assertion I've heard from you yet. If anything hurt the team for the remainder of the playoffs, it was not the call that Jackson made, that Jackson SHOULD make time and again as HEAD COACH. That's Phil Jackson's job. It's his team, not Scottie Pippen's.
