Securing Our Great Nation - PATRIOT Act Extended

Well I haven't had much of a chance to participate in the D & D due to work and I can see the more things change.....

Once again its paradoxical that the most conservative posters are arguing the hardest for increasing government power. I wonder if 9/11 had happened under Clinton what opinions would be. I have to agree that we shouldn't be conducting businessas usual given the threats we are under but at the same time I think there is a very grave danger from surrendering or compromising due process and other Constitutional rights in the name of fighting terrorism. Most people don't feel overburdened by things like the Patriot act because in general the only time that our rights really matter is in extreme situations. For instance in 1935 I doubt the majority of Germans felt over burdened by the Nazi regime. The problem is that when something happens that brings you to attention of government that's when your rights really matter and given that government is far from perfect even a regime with the best interests of its citizenry can still end up falsely accusing or worse somebody. This is somethign that I figured conservatives should appreciate.

The biggest problem for me about the Patriot act and its reaproval is that we very well may come to the point of accepting its policies as just a given part of US society. Its one thing to talk about curtailing rights during war and another to just do it as a matter of regular policy. What I fear is that even if the threat of terrorism were to diminish to the point where its not an issue at all that lawmakers will continue to renew the Patriot act to deal with whatever is the threat du jour, drugs, p*rn, illegal immigrants, Chinese and whatever, or else just keep voting for it out of habit.

 

Thank wnes. He threw a casual reference mocking references to 9/11 out there.

 

In addiiton we have the now infamous "inconveniencing a small number of Muslims" by TJ.

I agree it is hard to understand a proto-fascist, such a really anti-American mentality toward equality under the law and civil rights..

I still maintain that we are going to take away the issue of protection from terroirsts from the loyal Buhsites like TJ, who despite their raving about terrorism advocate policies that increase our danger from terrorism everyday.

Again it is a shame that President Bush has abused the trust of his loyal flollowers like Jorge and Bigtexx.

 

OMG. Where's the logic in this? YOU posted the pictures. Take responsibility for your actions.

 

quit trying to deflect the blame for tasteless posts regarding 9/11.

Since you went back and edited out the pictures there isn't much more you can do. The damage has been done, and crying 'he did it first' like 2nd grader doesn't help matters.

Probably the best you can do now is just to drop it.

(I edited this response to reflect your own edit.) Well done.

 

9/11 was made a mockery of as soon as some folks started using it as a means to consolidate power into the executive branch, and squash people with different opinions. That kind of use of the words deserve to be mocked.

Images of the actual event used for this type of purpose is nothing but shameful.

It isn't just inconveniencing a small number of Muslims, it is inconveniencing citizens. What particular religion those citizens happen to be doesn't make one single bit of difference, unless you are willing to change equal protection under our laws and constitution. You are willing to give up other parts of our freedoms so I don't know.

 

This little tantrum is about as convincing as a tearjerking scene from a WB drama.

 

And for what reason am I required/expected to agree with this sentiment? it was uttered hundreds of years ago. The world is very different now. There are other ways to look at things.

I guess some people think that we could/should just give up all security measures. That would be living in freedom... but it would be stupid. A few more laws here and there to buffer up security in a time of intense focus is no big deal.

Neither do I understand the hammeringon bigtexx. All he did is post some pictures that remind us how brutal our enemy is in an effort to remind us why we need to take measures to protect ourselves for the present.

 

The world is different. Freedom and tyranny aren't different. Nobody has advocated giving up all security measures.

I am advocating the keeping the right to a trial by a jury of my peers, a right to defend myself in a court of law, the right to check out books from libraries and not have the govt. snoop in and find out what books I've been reading.

Do you feel more secure because the govt. can ask for a list of all the books you have been reading? That provision is ridiculous.

Due process of law, and reasonable search and seisure should not be freedoms we have to give up for any reason at all.

The President's number one priority is not to defend the people's lives of this nation. It is to uphold the constitution. That comes first, and it was designed to be that way. Part of his job is the defense of our nation, but that doesn't trump the constitution.

 

Who has been "squashed" because of a different opinion?

 

These "few more laws here and there to buffer up security in a time of intense focus" were made permanent in the case of 14 of the 16 provisions, and extended for ten years in the case of the other two. You're not looking past your support of the Administration for just about anything they do, giddy. This is a completely unwarranted assault on our rights by the Republican controlled House and the Bush Administration. One can only hope that the Senate shows more reason and modifies both the provisions and their length.

What is the possible justification for making them permanent? Are we supposed to be in a permanent state of war?? It is very difficult not to draw comparisons to what happened in Germany in the 1930's. People were complacent then as well to what acts their government created that affected their lives. Not everyone. Those who protested were made to suffer terrible consequences. I get no pleasure from my knowledge of history at the moment. None at all.



Keep D&D Civil!!

 

Civil rights are embedded in the psyche of our population more than any other population in the world because without that base, there would be no way for such a diverse group of races and cultures to coexist so well. As many problems as our country has with racism, hate crimes, and discrimination, we are still more consious of this than almost anywhere else.

At some point safety wins out over liberty. I'm not sure what the scale should be or where that point falls, but it does exist out there somewhere. 2,992 people died on 9/11. New York and the US also suffered huge losses economically. I don't think that the losses we suffered on 9/11 are really the same as the ones we fear the most. I think the losses we are truly worried about are much worse. Things like a nuclear plant being taken out or a dirty bomb in NYC.

Just to put 9/11 in perspective, here are some other death counts from tragic events:

Terrorism:
2,992 - September 11, 2001 attacks, (New York City, Arlington, VA, Shanksville, PA, United States, 2001)
344 - Beslan School Siege, (Beslan, Russia, 2004)
329 - Air India Flight 182 (Atlantic Ocean, south of Ireland, 1985)
299 - US and French barracks bombings, (Beirut, Lebanon, 1983)

Riots:
87,000 - Tibetan riots against Chinese Government (Tibet, China 1959)
11,000 - Romanian Peasants' Revolt, 1907
7,500 - March 1st Movement (Seoul, Korea, 1919)
300–5,000 - Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 (China, 1989)
500–2,600 - Aftermath of Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 (China, 1989)

Tsunami:
228,000–310,000 - Indian Ocean earthquake with tsunami, (Indonesia, India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Somalia, Myanmar, and other countries) 2004
70,000 - Messina, Italy, earthquake and tsunami, 1908
5,000 - Moro Gulf, Philippines, 1976
3,000 - Papua New Guinea, 1998

War:
45,000,000–68,000,000 - World War II (1937–1945), (see World War II casualties)
15,000,000–66,000,000 - World War I (1914–1918) (see World War I casualties) note the larger number includes Spanish flu deaths
5,000,000–9,000,000 - Russian Civil War (1917–1921)

Every year 16,000 people are murdered in the US. 95,000 people are raped. Profiling is still illegal for controlling these crimes. 44,000 people die in US auto accidents every year. 750 people die from firearm accidents every year. 30,000 people committ suicide. 3,000,000 Africans die of AIDS every year.

At some point.... safety trumps liberty. I just don't know where that point should be. So what is with all the chest thumping in here?

 

No I didn't use it casually because it is a matter of fact. And the facts are that the Bushies used it to make political gains over their political opponents, the neocons used it to advance their jingoistic agenda, and the spineless members of the Congress used to it to throw all sorts of craps to the democracy and to undermine the individual liberty of American people.

It is a matter of fact because folks like you are blinded to such a degree that you are unwilling to think critically (although I still believe you are certainly capable) of the root cause of the 9/11 tragedy and the deleterious consequences of this ill-advised and ill-served act of federal legislation.

Having experienced "the best of the two worlds", I can tell you if this so-called Patriot Act, as it is currently specified, is signed into the law, the real winners will be the terrorists - Al-Qaeda and its followers. They are no less happier to see a single act of 9/11 can wreck havoc in supposed-to-be the greatest democracy in the world - the environment of fear they intended to create is fostered to perfection by the United States government and people like you.

 

US Constitution was written when? To this day it is still the best piece of document on how to build a government in the history of man kind. Some words can stand the judgement of time and history, something I highly doubt the acts of the current administration will be able to in fifty years.

 

It's called manipulating fear.

 

Tyranny is different because its weapons are different. Limit AQ to muskets and 16lb cannon balls and I find no need the The Patriot Act either.

No one is without their right to a trial by a jury of their peers unless they are identified as an enemy combatant. Padilla is an enemy of the US-- go on defending him if you will.

 

I absolutely agree that these provisions should not be permanent (10 years is too long as well), but is this 'patriot act' really a total assault on our liberties? We're not talking about curfews, restrictions on when/ where we can travel, or where we can work etc. etc...

If i’m missing something please let me know ~ I understand there is a fine line, but i'm just not feeling like we're about to lose our way of life.

 

Sure... but those words were not in the Constitution... and, BTW, the Constitution has some 26 amendments, I believe.

BTW, I believe that the Constitution was ratified in 1787-- some 11 years after the declaration of independence-- that's how self-evident those truths were.

 

Please explain. How is he manipulating "fear" anymore than his critics are manipulating "complacency?" If we advocate for something, we are manipulating, I would think. You make it sound so dirty....

 

I never said it was a "total assault" on our liberties. An assault on our liberties, yes, but an assault in increments. Where do you draw the line? When the Patriot Act was passed, in a fervor by Congress, and rightly so, to strengthen our defenses against these madmen, it wasn't expected that the provisons would last 10 years, much less forever. Why the sudden change in direction? Why make them permanent? What's the point??

Is there to be no end in sight to the fight against terror? Fighting those who would commit terrorist acts of violence and murder will, of course, never stop as long as terrorists, of any race, creed or color, act against civilization... ours, and everyone elses. But to what lengths do we cede our rights and freedoms to fight them? When does it stop, this continuation of chipping away at what Jefferson, Madison and Adams fought so hard to give us. And what a gift all those men and women gave us! If we don't find as hard, hell, harder, to preserve our freedoms in the face of these lunatics, then they have won.

Again... where do you stop reducing our freedoms? When?
To the Administration, and the Republican Congress, seemingly never.



Keep D&D Civil!!