You mean you'd rather be like this or this than this? Hmmm, domesticated cheetahs think a lot like institutionalized human beings.
"Turban-wearing muslims"????? I never ever said that. Don't put quotes around it as if I would say something like that. That's just inflammatory on your part. Unnecessary.
Your photos are a poor example as caring for injured animals does not equal being institutionalized. Also- perhaps you do not realize this I am not a real cheetah. At any rate your post is a silly attack that has nothing to do with the issue at hand ~ wnes please explain how your civil liberties have been abused. Abusing civil liberties is wrong no doubt about that, but one can certainly find many instances when they were being abused before the patriot act came into play.
Ha ha, I think we have to get T_J to run with us. Since he is so tough I am sure he can beat King Cheetah with his bare hands.
Okay, I'll respond: I follow the news. That's what you jumped on me for. I don't berate you for being passionate. I admonished you for attacking an innocent man...
Meh. Understood. For what it's worth, I actually enjoy debates with you - you're not totally unreasonable. EDIT: At the risk of going offtopic, what was your reaction to that news? Does it change your opinion on anything?
You claim to be all for freedoms, but your support of bills that limit those freedoms belie the statement. I am all for strict security. Please don't act like I am not. I am not for removing freedoms. I don't believe that looking at books I check out of the library will help prevent terrorism at all.
I'm not sure what you mean. No, you can't ignore this stuff. That is why we have to stop provoking Arabs by unnecessarily occupying their country. Blind loyalty to Bush or the GOP is not enough. I guess the rest of us have to just get pissed off enough to overcome these stupid Bush loyalists who are making us less safe.
The real question is, what will Americans put up with in order to maintain the standard of living that we have become accustomed to? American culture is built upon immediate satisfaction, the I want it now attitude. We need a secure supply of oil to keep the old America economy running, so we are going to be militarily involved in the Middle East until the oil runs out. Having our military there is going to PO a lot of people, so terrorists are going to come after us. Americans want to feel safe in surburbia, so most won't even blink at the extension of the Patriot Act.
Can TJ and the like really be so ignorant that they think that the Patirot Act II, III, XIV or whatever can actually prevent suicide bombers from striking in our country? Also, what is wierd is that some of the most irrational, emotional and "violent" Bush backers who claim to want to nuke all Arabs like NJ Rocket, or claim to be pro-torture like TJ seem to be so ignorant to the fact that as human beings Arabs will fight back, even if wrongfully when you oppress them. I just wish they could forget their pro Bush loyalty or desire to rewrite the history of the Vietnam War or whatever for an instance and try to think outside their little neocn boxes about how to combat terrorism.
So if we lax security standards that will not increase the incidents of terrorism? You can't have it both ways. And you are fixing the argument; no one is talking about out-and-out prevention. Every time we ratchet up security measure, we increase the likeliehood of stopping an attack.
We had more than enough security prior to 9-11 and we don't need a Patriot Act. I am copying from a 'wacko' site, not so everyone can tell me how insane and wacko I am, but because in all the thick black smoke plumes out there on the internet there must be some fire. I have read everything from Bush's own story to the most leftist Bush-hater's politicalization of 9-11, to those who were on the Keen Commission to those who believe there is a conspiracy under every rock. I have read and read and read. One set of dots I personally have connected is that our CIA is very, very good and if they want to get the terrorists they will. I really believe there must be political reasons for the FBI and the CIA not to be on the same page or to fail in their missions or to 'allow' something tragic to happen. I don't know why we are pushing the Patriot Act nor do I know why we are doing half the things we are doing. But I do know something ain't right. So start the name calling.... but consider that there is literally mountains of documented evidence out there that our intelligence is far superior to all others and they don't need a Patriot Act to catch terrorists or fool you and I. This is a 9/11 timeline that is not included in the Keen Commission 9/11 report. Again- MY POINT is that the CIA and FBI can do all they need to do without any more legislation that gives them power over our civil liberties. A 9-11 Timeline: August 2001 (D): Russian President Putin later states that suicide pilots are training for attacks on US targets. [Fox News, 5/17/02] The head of Russian intelligence also states, "We had clearly warned them" on several occasions, but they "did not pay the necessary attention." [Agence France-Presse, 9/16/01] A Russian newspaper on September 12, 2001 claims that "Russian Intelligence agents know the organizers and executors of these terrorist attacks. More than that, Moscow warned Washington about preparation to these actions a couple of weeks before they happened." Interestingly, the article claims that at least two of the terrorists were Muslim radicals from Uzbekistan. [Izvestia, 9/12/01, (the story currently on the Izvestia web site has been edited to delete a key paragraph, the link is to a translation of the original article from From the Wilderness)] August 2001 (E): Former CIA agent Robert Baer is advising a prince in a Persian Gulf royal family, when a military associate of this prince passes information to him about a "spectacular terrorist operation" that will take place shortly. He is also given a computer record of around 600 secret al-Qaeda operatives in Saudi Arabia and Yemen. The list includes 10 names that will be placed on the FBI's most wanted terrorists list after 9/11. He is also given evidence that a Saudi merchant family had funded the USS Cole bombing, and that the Yemeni government is covering up information related to that bombing. At the military officer's request, he offers all this information to the Saudi Arabian government. But an aide to the Saudi defense minister, Prince Sultan, refuses to look at the list or to pass the names on (Sultan is later sued for his complicity in the 9/11 plot). Baer also passes the information on to a senior CIA official and the CIA's Counter-Terrorism Center, but there is no response or action. Large sections of Baer's book are blacked out, having been censored by the CIA. [Financial Times, 1/12/02, Breakdown: How America's Intelligence Failures Led to September 11, Bill Gertz, pp. 55-58, See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism, Robert Baer, 2/02, pp. 270-271, Breakdown: How America's Intelligence Failures Led to September 11, Bill Gertz, pp. 55-58] Early August 2001: Britain gives the US another warning about an al-Qaeda attack.The previous British warning was vague as to method, but this warning specifies multiple airplane hijackings. This warning is included in Bush's briefing on August 6. [Sunday Herald, 5/19/02] August 6, 2001: President Bush receives a classified intelligence briefing at his Crawford, Texas ranch indicating that bin Laden might be planning to hijack commercial airliners. Titled "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US," the memo focuses on the possibility of terrorist attacks inside the US, with the WTC specifically mentioned. Yet Bush later states the briefing “said nothing about an attack on America.” [Washington Post, 4/11/04, White House, 4/11/04] National Security Advisor Rice claims the memo was "fuzzy and thin." [Newsweek, 5/27/02, New York Times, 5/16/02, Die Zeit, 10/1/02] A Congressional report later describes this memo mentioning "that members of al-Qaeda, including some US citizens, had resided in or traveled to the US for years and that the group apparently maintained a support structure here. The report cited uncorroborated information obtained in 1998 that bin Laden wanted to hijack airplanes to gain the release of US-held extremists. It also described FBI judgments about patterns of activity consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, and a number of bin Laden-related investigations underway." [Senate Intelligence Committee, 9/18/02] Incredibly, the New York Times later reports that Bush "broke off from work early and spent most of the day fishing." [New York Times, 5/25/02] The existence of this memo is kept secret until May 2002. [New York Times, 5/16/02, Washington Post, 5/16/02, Intelligence Briefing, 8/6/01 posted on George Washington University’s National Security Archives] August 8-15, 2001: At some point between these dates, Israel warns the US that an al-Qaeda attack is imminent. [Fox News, 5/17/02] Two high ranking agents from the Mossad come to Washington and warn the FBI and CIA that from 50 to 200 terrorists have slipped into the US and are planning "a major assault on the United States." They say indications point to a "large scale target", and that Americans would be "very vulnerable." They add there could be Iraqi connections to the al-Qaeda attack. [Telegraph, 9/16/01, Los Angeles Times, 9/20/01, Ottawa Citizen, 9/17/01] The Los Angeles Times later retracts the story after a CIA spokesman says, "There was no such warning. Allegations that there was are complete and utter nonsense." [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/01] In light of later revelations of a Mossad spy ring trailing numerous Muslim terrorists in the US, it is easy to see that Mossad could have had this information. August 13-15, 2001: Zacarias Moussaoui trains at the Pan Am International Flight School in Minneapolis, Minnesota, where he pays $8,300 ($1500 by credit card and the remainder in cash) to use a Boeing 474 Model 400 aircraft simulator. After just one day of training, most of the staff is suspicious that he's a terrorist. They discuss "how much fuel [is] on board a 747-400, and how much damage that could cause if it hit anything." They call the FBI with their concerns later that day. [New York Times, 2/8/02, Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02] Failing to get much initial interest from the FBI, the flight instructor tells the FBI agents, "Do you realize how serious this is? This man wants training on a 747. A 747 fully loaded with fuel could be used as a weapon!" [New York Times, 2/8/02] August 15, 2001: Based on the concerns of flight school staff, Zacarias Moussaoui is arrested and detained in Minnesota on the excuse of an immigration violation. [Time, 5/27/02, some reports say the 16th because the arrest happened late at night] The FBI confiscates his possessions, including a computer laptop, but don't have a search warrant to search through them. But when arresting him, they note he possesses two knives, fighting gloves and shin guards, and had prepared "through physical training for violent confrontation." An FBI interview of him adds more concerns. For example, he is supposedly in the US working as a "marketing consultant" for a computer company, but is unable to provide any details of his employment. Nor can he convincingly explain his $32,000 bank balance. [MSNBC, 12/11/01, Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02] An FBI report states that when asked about his trips to Pakistan, the gateway to Afghanistan, "the questioning caused him to become extremely agitated, and he refused to discuss the matter further." The report also notes "Moussaoui was extremely evasive in many of his answers." [CNN, 9/28/02] His roommate is interviewed on the same day, and tells agents that Moussaoui believes it is "acceptable to kill civilians who harm Muslims," that Moussaoui approves of Muslims who die as "martyrs", and says Moussaoui might be willing to act on his beliefs. [Washington Post, 5/24/02] But Minnesota FBI agents quickly become frustrated at the lack of interest in the case from higher ups. [New York Times, 2/8/02] For instance, on August 21, they e-mail FBI headquarters saying it's "imperative" that the Secret Service be warned of the danger a plot involving Moussaoui might pose to the President's safety. But no such warning is ever sent. [Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02, New York Times, 10/18/02] August 22, 2001 (A): The French give the FBI information requested about Zacarias Moussaoui. [Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02] The French say Moussaoui has ties with radical Islamic groups and recruits men to fight in Chechnya. They believe he spent time in Afghanistan. He had been on a French watch list for several years, preventing him from entering France. A French justice official later says the government gave the FBI “everything we had" on Moussaoui, "enough to make you want to check this guy out every way you can. Anyone paying attention would have seen he was not only operational in the militant Islamist world but had some autonomy and authority as well." [Time, 5/27/02] A senior French investigator later says "Even a neophyte working in some remote corner of Florida would have understood the threat based on what was sent." [Time, 8/4/02] The French Interior Minister also emphasizes, "We did not hold back any information." [ABC News, 9/5/02] But senior officials at FBI headquarters still maintain that the information "was too sketchy to justify a search warrant for his computer." [Time, 8/4/02] August 22, 2001 (B): Counter-terrorism expert John O'Neill quits the FBI. He says it's partly because of a recent power play against him, but also because of repeated obstruction of his investigations into al-Qaeda. [New Yorker, 1/14/02] In his last act, he signs papers ordering FBI investigators back to Yemen to resume the USS Cole investigation, now that Barbara Bodine is leaving as ambassador (they arrive a couple days before 9/11). He never hears the CIA warning about hijackers Alhazmi and Almihdhar sent out just one day later. Because he fell out of favor a few months earlier, he also is never told about Ken Williams' flight school memo, nor about the arrest of Zacarias Moussaoui [PBS Frontline, 10/3/02], nor is he at a June meeting when the CIA revealed some of what it knew about Alhazmi and Almihdhar. [PBS Frontline, 10/3/02] The FBI New York office is eventually told of Walid Arkeh's warning that the WTC would be attacked, but presumably not in time for O'Neill to hear it. One can only wonder what the government's "most committed tracker of Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda network of terrorists" [New Yorker, 1/14/02] could have accomplished if he was aware of these things. August 23, 2001 (A): According to German newspapers, the Mossad gives the CIA a list of terrorists living in the US, and say that they appear to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future. It is unknown if these are the 19 9/11, hijackers or if the number is a coincidence. However, four names on the list are known and are names of 9/11 hijackers Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, Marwan Alshehhi, and Mohamed Atta. [Die Zeit, 10/1/02, Der Spiegel, 10/1/02, BBC, 10/2/02, Ha’aretz, 10/3/02] The Mossad appears to have learned about this through its "art student" spy ring. Yet apparently this warning and list are not treated as particularly urgent by the CIA. Nor are they passed on to the FBI. It's not clear if this warning influenced the adding of Alhazmi and Almihdhar to a terrorism watch list on this same day, and if so, why only those two. [Der Spiegel, 10/1/02] Israel has denied that there were any Mossad agents in the US. [Ha’aretz, 10/3/02] The US has denied knowing about Atta before 9/11, despite other media reports to the contrary. August 23, 2001 (B): John O'Neill begins his new job as head of security at the WTC. [New Yorker, 1/14/02] A friend says to him, "Well, that will be an easy job. They're not going to bomb that place again." O'Neill replies, "Well actually they've always wanted to finish that job. I think they're going to try again." On September 10, he moves into his new office on the 34th floor of the North Tower. That night, he tells colleague Jerry Hauer, "We're due for something big. I don't like the way things are lining up in Afghanistan" (a probable reference to the assassination of Afghan leader General Massoud on September 9). O'Neill is killed the next day in the 9/11 attack. [PBS Frontline, 10/3/02] August 23-27, 2001: In the wake of the French intelligence report on Zacarias Moussaoui, FBI agents in Minnesota are "in a frenzy" and "absolutely convinced he [is] planning to do something with a plane." One agent writes notes speculating Moussaoui might "fly something into the World Trade Center." [Newsweek, 5/20/02] Minnesota FBI agents become "desperate to search the computer lap top" and "conduct a more thorough search of his personal effects," especially since Moussaoui acted as if he was hiding something important in the laptop when arrested. [Time, 5/21/02, Time, 5/27/02] They decide to apply for a search warrant under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). "FISA allows the FBI to carry out wiretaps and searches that would otherwise be unconstitutional" because "the goal is to gather intelligence, not evidence." [Washington Post, 11/4/01] Standards to get a warrant through FISA are so low that out of 10,000 requests over more than 20 years, not a single one was turned down. [New York Times, 8/27/02] However, as FBI agent Coleen Rowley later puts it, FBI headquarters "almost inexplicably, throw up roadblocks" and undermines their efforts. Headquarters personnel bring up "almost ridiculous questions in their apparent efforts to undermine the probable cause." One Minneapolis agent's e-mail says FBI headquarters is "setting this up for failure." [Time, 5/21/02, Time, 5/27/02] August 24, 2001 (A): Frustrated with lack of response from FBI headquarters about Zacarias Moussaoui, the Minnesota FBI contact an FBI agent working with the CIA's Counter-Terrorism Center, and asks the CIA for help. [Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02] On this day, the CIA sends messages to stations and bases overseas requesting information about Moussaoui. The message says that the FBI is investigating Moussaoui for possible involvement in the planning of a terrorist attack and mentions his efforts to obtain flight training. It also suggests he might be "involved in a larger plot to target airlines traveling from Europe to the US." [Senate Intelligence Committee, 9/18/02] It calls him a "suspect 747 airline attacker" and a "suspect airline suicide hijacker" - showing that the form of the 9/11 attack isn't a surprise, at least to the CIA. [Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02] FBI headquarters responds by chastising the Minnesota FBI for notifying the CIA without approval. [Time, 5/21/02] August 24, 2001 (B): Hijacker Khalid Almihdhar buys his 9/11 plane ticket on-line using a credit card. Nawaf Alhazmi does the same the next day. [Congressional Intelligence Committee, 9/26/02] Both men had been put on a terrorist watch list on August 23. Procedures are in place for law enforcement agencies to share watch list information with airlines and airports. Such sharing is common, but the FAA and the airlines are not notified, so the purchases raise no red flags. [Los Angeles Times, 9/20/01] An official later states that had the FAA been properly warned, "they should have been picked up in the reservation process." [Washington Post, 10/2/02] August 24-29, 2001: The hijackers book their flights for 9/11, using their real names. Most pay using credit cards on the internet. [Miami Herald, 9/22/01] So 9/11 must have been the confirmed date of the attack by August 24. Why would they pay using credit cards in their real names? August 27, 2001: An agent at the FBI headquarters' Radical Fundamentalist Unit (RFU) tells the FBI Minnesota office supervisor that the supervisor is getting people "spun up" over Moussaoui. The supervisor replies that he is trying to get people at FBI headquarters "spun up" because he is trying to make sure that Moussaoui does "not take control of a plane and fly it into the World Trade Center." He later alleges the headquarters agent replies, "[T]hat's not going to happen. We don't know he's a terrorist. You don't have enough to show he is a terrorist. You have a guy interested in this type of aircraft - that is it." [Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02] Three weeks earlier, Dave Frasca, the head of the RFU unit, had received Ken Williams' memo expressing concern about terrorists training in US flight schools, and he also knew all about the Moussaoui case, but he apparently wasn't "spun up" enough to connect the two cases. [Time, 5/27/02] Neither he nor anyone else at FBI headquarters who saw Williams's memo informed anyone at the FBI Minnesota office about it before 9/11. [Time, 5/21/02] August 28, 2001 (A): A report is sent to the FBI's New York office recommending that an investigation be launched "to determine if [Khalid] Almihdhar is still in the United States." The New York office tries to convince FBI headquarters to open a criminal investigation, but are immediately turned down. The reason given is a "wall" between criminal and intelligence work - Almihdhar could not be tied to the Cole investigation without the inclusion of sensitive intelligence information. [Congressional Intelligence Committee, 9/20/02] So instead of a criminal case, the New York office opens an "intelligence case," excluding all the "criminal case" investigators from the search. [FBI Agent Testimony, 9/20/02] One FBI agent expresses his frustration in an e-mail the next day, saying, "Whatever has happened to this - someday someone will die - and wall or not - the public will not understand why we were not more effective and throwing every resource we had at certain 'problems.' Let's hope the [FBI's] National Security Law Unit will stand behind their decisions then, especially since the biggest threat to us now, UBL [Usama bin Laden], is getting the most 'protection."' [New York Times, 9/21/02, FBI Agent Testimony, 9/20/02] August 28, 2001 (B): A previously mentioned unnamed RFU agent edits the Minnesota FBI's request for a FISA search warrant to search Zacarias Moussaoui's possessions. Minnesota is trying to prove that Moussaoui is connected to al-Qaeda through a rebel group in Chechnya, but the RFU agent removes information connecting the Chechnya rebels to al-Qaeda. The FBI Deputy General Counsel who receives the edited request decides on this day that there isn't enough connection to al-Qaeda to allow an application for a search warrant through FISA, so FISA is never even asked. [Senate Intelligence Committee, 10/17/02] According to a later memo written by Minneapolis FBI legal officer Coleen Rowley (see an edited version of the memo here: Time, 5/21/02), FBI headquarters is to blame for not getting the FISA warrant because of this rewrite of the request. She says "I feel that certain facts ... have, up to now, been omitted, downplayed, glossed over and/or mis-characterized in an effort to avoid or minimize personal and/or institutional embarrassment on the part of the FBI and/or perhaps even for improper political reasons." She asks, "Why would an FBI agent deliberately sabotage a case?" The superiors acted so strangely that some agents in the Minneapolis office openly joked that these higher-ups "had to be spies or moles ... working for Osama bin Laden." Failing to approve the warrant through FISA, FBI headquarters also refuses to contact the Justice Department to try and get a search warrant through ordinary means. Rowley and others are unable to search Moussaoui's computer until after the 9/11 attacks. Rowley later notes that the headquarters agents who blocked the Minnesota FBI were promoted after 9/11. [Sydney Morning Herald, 5/28/02, Time, 5/21/02] August 30-September 4, 2001: According to Egyptian President Mubarak, Egyptian intelligence warns American officials that bin Laden's network is in the advanced stages of executing a significant operation against an American target, probably within the US. [AP, 12/7/01, New York Times, 6/4/02] He says he learned this information from an agent working inside al-Qaeda. US officials deny receiving any such warning from Egypt. [ABC News, 6/4/02] link
Hey it's your logic I'm following. If tightening security doesn't help to prevent further attacks, obviously lessening security does nothing to make them more likely. Levels of security have, apparently in your view, nothing to do with security, right? Lay off the poor-pitiful-liberal excuses.
