Why are people in China and Soviet Union so afraid of government sometimes? It is because they are afraid anything they say that is bad about the government will be picked up by wiretaps at homes or on the phone or the spy next door. They pull you up in the middle of the night and send you to jail with no trial for years because you said you are aginst communist party. Do we want the same kind of system in the Unitd States? I thought that was one of the major reasons my parents left China to come to the United Sates? What if they started censoring Clutch BBS and everyone have to worry about what they post here? What if when the democrats get elected next, they start taping T_J and bigTex's phone line to listen for any thing that can be used against you because you two are such hard core neocons?
So FranchiseBlade, you want to strip law enforcement of critical resources, just because a Muslim man had his house searched and another was detained for a period of time. You want to remove meaningful resources that protect millions of Americans just because two people were inconvenienced? That is simply absurd! I don't care if 1,000 people have their house searched tomorrow. Frankly, members of the Muslim community are just going to have to bear with some of these inconveniences for a period of time. That's just life. There are no two ways about it. Is it ideal? No. Is it necessary? Yes. Instead of complaining and acting all put out, we as Americans should be willing to make these sacrifices for the SAFETY of all of us.
You may not care about America's freedoms, but I do. It isn't about stripping law enforcement of anything. It is about stripping Americans of their freedoms. That is what I am against. The president's number one job per his oath of office isn't to protect the nation's citizens, but to uphold the constitution of the United States. If you don't like the American way of life you are free to move to any other nation you would like.
How could you live with yourself if another 9-11 happened because police were afraid that 1-2 Muslim men might be improperly searched at an airport? I'm all for freedoms myself, but not getting blown up obviously takes precedent. You try telling a widow of 9-11 that police shouldn't utilize all resources available to them because 1-2 people may be inconvenienced. Answer this question: Which would you rather have: A) 10 Muslims inconvenienced (house searches, detained, etc) B) Weaker security, opening the door for a potential attack which could kill thousands. Your argument seems to support B.
I think he meant personal experiences of posters. Like something that happened to you personally. Look, I'm not saying the PA is perfect. No aspect of law enforcement is. I'm sure the police have arrested "the wrong guy" many times way before 9/11 and the PA. Does that mean we should dissolve all police departments? Some people in this thread are comparing the PA to Pre-WWII Germany, the Soviet Union, or current China. I'm not sure if they really believe that or if they're just simply using hyperbole to make a point, but I just don't buy it. I have yet to hear about groups of Muslims being rounded up, thrown into railroad cars and shipped off to concentration camps. Maybe I missed the news that day.
One man's security restriction is another man's element of The Patriot Act. Where do you draw the line? Do security restrictions suggested post 9/11 become infringements but those preceding 9/11 yet remain only as security restrictions. You know you're not nearly as free as you think you are...
I'm not really sure if it is like pre-WWII Germany or not. But I will say now, as I have before, Nazi Germany didn't just spring up all of a sudden, with a bunch of dictatorial rules and concentration camps. Those rules were put into place gradually, a little at a time, and with the support of most of the population. Remember the Patriot act was supposed to be only during a dangerous conflict with Terrorists. Yet now they are saying we should except this limitation of our freedoms as permenant whether we are in a period of high alert or not. It is already creeping and expanding.
Would you just stop being such a hothead?! glynch is talking specifically about The Patriot Act not Bush's Petrochemical Domination Movement. I think you respond to me just to obstruct. May I request that you put me on Ignore... if you can't do any better?
I never said present day USA is like China or the old Soviet Union. I only want to know do we want head down that path and how far down the path is not too far.
The ones we don't have that you've forgotten about were invoked for a reason-- under no targeted threat. Why is it now that we have been targeted a few more security measures aren't appropriate for the general safety of the public? Don't let your idealism run rampant... over a cliff.
Honest question. Do you really believe this country could ever end up like Germany in the 1930's? Do you really think that's possible? Call me naive, but I don't. It would seem that, by you making this comparison, you are also comparing the threat from al quada today to Hitler's implied threat from the Jews in the 30's. Of course there was no "threat" from the Jews in Germany. So does that mean there really isn't a threat from al quada today?
I just thought of something funny. Hard core neocons would love to live in China. They would support the government and be patriotic, outlaw dissenting voices. Have the wealthy dictate government policies, ignore many governmental controls that exist in the USA such as EPA standars. Have extremely low income tax plus the economy is growing very rapidly.
If you had suggested that there would be concentration camps to anyone in Germany in 1934 they would have laughed in your face and called you an un-patriotic lunatic. And the patriot act is not connected to Nazi Germany. My point was that government actions aren't sanctified by using the term 'patriotism' in any of its forms. Where the patriot act violates constiutional protections of freedoms it is insidious. Please read Congressman Paul's speech to Congress. It is long, but we need to understand what is at the bottom of the stairs if we are going to keep taking a step at a time into the dark. No one loses their country because they saw it coming. Put the frog in the water and slowly turn up the heat. I am a republican (because I don't know where else to go) and I support the present admin. (because I am praying for them and I am waiting for them to turn conservative-hoping/praying) but they are doing nothing that makes me want to keep the faith. The Patriot Act is unnecessary, we already have enough police powers to catch the bad guys.
Somebody wake me when the Senate passes their version. The House version is poitical grandstanding, nothing more or less.
Imma, you're right, some of it IS hyperbole to help illustrate a point. However, the overriding issue and the "point", as it were, is that freedoms are easily diminished when no one is looking. It's not so much a particular unlawful search or wrongful jailing, but the potential behind them that concerns some folks. Expansive wire tapping and access to library records should concern you even if YOU aren't directly effected at the moment. If we don't collectively think "it could happen again" when you mentioned cattle-cars and concentration camps, then how can we recognize when it does? All I am saying is that someone needs to watch the watchers and it's our duty, as freedom loving Americans, to question ANY liberty that the federal government tries to curb or gain more power over. Jesus, how did conservatives and liberals switch sides on this issue?? That's a sign of the Apocalypse right there!
This is not a conservative issue or a liberal issue but an American issue that every responsible citizen should think hard about.
I really haven't noticed any changes to my civil liberties ~ so I don't mind an extension. I wish that it was less then 10 years, but at least it isn't permanent - another 4 years would be about right IMHO.
Ima, I don't understand. Are you seriously implying that unless I personally am affected I have no reason to be upset? Let's say (as TJ implies) that this is only going to affect a few "turban-wearing muslims". People named Habib who wear turbans to work deserve the same rights under the Constitution as those named Steve. By denying them that right, we are violating the fundamental principles of our society; of MY society. The laws and principles of MY country are being violated, and my fellow citizens (many of whom are named Habib) being denied their rights as citizens. That anyone in DC even gives such a concept consideration is apalling and offensive. That you would defend it is unfathomable.
I apologize if I am too passionate. I read glynch to be referring to foreign policy and it's link to the Patriot Act. I think it telling that you berate me for being passionate rather than responding to my points. Would you just stop ignoring what you don't like to hear? EDIT: Reread glynch's post. You will find that he is referring to Bush's Petrochemical Domination Movement.
