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Section 3 of the 14th Amendment

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by No Worries, Aug 24, 2023.

  1. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    www.nytimes.com
    Colorado Trial Considers Whether the 14th Amendment Disqualifies Trump
    Some constitutional experts argue that a clause in the amendment should bar Donald J. Trump from becoming president again, but that view is far from universal among legal scholars.
     
    No Worries and Andre0087 like this.
  2. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Fascinating. Excellent post.
     
    No Worries and ROCKSS like this.
  3. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    He made this forum unreadable, so I did something about it. I also asked @Clutch if he could give supporting members the ability to make the ignore feature “forum specific” and he said he thought it was a good idea. That way, if a member made an absurd pest of him or herself in a particular forum, whichever one it was, you could make them disappear from that one, but see them in the others. Perhaps it proved more difficult than he expected, because nothing came of it. Which is a pity. I think it would be a good perk.
     
  4. Xerobull

    Xerobull You son of a b!tch! I'm in!

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    I’ve asked for an ‘ignore thread’ feature a few times. Same result.
     
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  5. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    A forum specific ignore feature isn't that necessary. If someone is so offensive that I need to put them on ignore, then they are probably offensive in all their posts. In this case, I used the ignore originally from GARM after all the Lin-only and year joined posts. Haven't missed any content to be honest... there is so much good stuff there.
     
  6. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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  7. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Minnesota Supreme Court Ruling on Whether Trump Is Disqualified From Being on Primary Ballot

    The Minnesota Supreme Court has ruled that Donald Trump can be on the Republican Primary ballot in that state. However, the court did not rule on whether Trump is Constitutionally eligible under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.

    The court essentially found that the issue is not ripe because the primary chooses only delegates sent to the party’s national convention, which then decides who the party nominee is. The court described this as an “internal party election.” Part of “a process that allows political parties to obtain voter input in advance of a nomination decision made at a national convention.” You can read the four page decision HERE.

    Why should a court be compelled to rule on the hypothetical that Trump might be nominated? If he is not the nominee the court would have no cause to exercise its authority at all. The concern is, at this stage, based on the speculation that Trump will be the nominee.

    The matter is dismissed, for now, without prejudice. The petitioners are free to refile, seeking a ruling on the merits, if Trump does win the Republican nomination.
     
  8. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Then they'll say, what right have we to decide on whether he can be on the ballot when the election hasn't even indicated he's the nation's choice for president? If he wins the election then you can come back. Oh, he won the election? Well, the election just assigns delegates to the electoral college and it is actually the electoral college that picks the president. Come back if they actually pick him to be president. Oh, they picked him to be president? Well, that's just an electoral status. He won't actually be president until he is sworn in by the Chief Justice. Oh, the Chief Justice swore him in? Well, what the hell can we do about that now?

    ;)
     
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  9. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Clearly this is the R strategy.

    If the USSC does eliminate Trump from a single primary or a single general election ballot, I doubt that the chief justice can then swear in Trump as the next POTUS. I am 51% sure ;)
     
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Michigan judge inserts "Congress must approve" clause into Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Whatever that judge decides would be appealed and has. This will eventually land in the USSC.

    [AP] Michigan judge says Trump can stay on primary ballot, rejecting challenge under insurrection clause

    A Michigan judge ruled Tuesday that former President Donald Trump will remain on the state’s primary ballot, dealing a blow to the effort to stop Trump’s candidacy with a Civil War-era Constitutional clause.

    It marks the second time in a week that a state court declined to remove Trump from a primary ballot under the insurrection provision of the 14th Amendment.

    In Michigan, Court of Claims Judge James Redford rejected arguments that Trump’s role in the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol meant the court had to declare him ineligible for the presidency. Redford wrote that, because Trump followed state law in qualifying for the primary ballot, he cannot remove the former president.

    Additionally, he said it should be up to Congress to decide whether Trump is disqualified under the section of the U.S. Constitution that bars from office a person who “engaged in insurrection.”

    Redford said deciding whether an event constituted “a rebellion or insurrection and whether or not someone participated in it” are questions best left to Congress and not "one single judicial officer." A judge, he wrote, "cannot in any manner or form possibly embody the represented qualities of every citizen of the nation — as does the House of Representatives and the Senate.”

    Free Speech For People, a liberal group that has brought 14th Amendment cases in a number of states, said it will immediately appeal the ruling to the Michigan Court of Appeals, but also asked the state supreme court to step in and take the case on an expedited basis.

    “We are disappointed by the trial court’s decision, and we’re appealing it immediately,” said Ron Fein, Legal Director of Free Speech For People.

    In a statement, Trump campaign spokesman Steven Cheung rattled off other losses in the long-shot effort to bar Trump from the ballot.

    “Each and every one of these ridiculous cases have LOST because they are all un-Constitutional left-wing fantasies orchestrated by monied allies of the Biden campaign seeking to turn the election over to the courts and deny the American people the right to choose their next president,” Cheung said.

    Left-learning groups have filed similar lawsuits in other states seeking to bar Trump from the ballot, portraying him as inciting the Jan. 6 attack, which was intended to stop Congress from certifying Joe Biden’s 2020 presidential election win.

    The two-sentence clause in the 14th Amendment has been used only a handful of times since the years after the Civil War. It’s likely that one of the active cases eventually will be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, which has never ruled on the insurrection clause.

    Last week, the Minnesota Supreme Court sidestepped the issue by ruling that Trump could stay on that state’s primary ballot because the election is a party-run contest during which constitutional eligibility isn’t an issue. It left the door open to another lawsuit to keep Trump off the state’s general election ballot.

    A Colorado judge is expected to rule on a similar lawsuit there by Friday. Closing arguments in that case are scheduled for Wednesday.

     
    #90 No Worries, Nov 15, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2023
  11. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    The man's a walking Constitutional crisis.
     
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  12. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Judges seem to feel the same way I do - there isnt enough due process in the way these plaintiffs are asking the amendment to be interpreted.
     
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  13. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  14. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    The tortured and pretzel routes the courts have to go to satisfy trump...




     
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  15. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    On the other hand... the judge did conclude that trump “engaged in an insurrection on January 6, 2021 through incitement" (and not protected by free speech), and trump "acted with the specific intent to disrupt the Electoral College certification of President Biden’s electoral victory through unlawful means."
     
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  16. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  17. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Judge ruled on two things.

    1. Question of facts. Judge ruled that Trump "engaged in insurrection" and that Trump's speech was not protected by the first amendment, as a matter of fact.

    2. Question of law. Judge ruled that President was not an "officer" of the US, since Section 3 did not specifically mention the President as being "an officer of the United States".

    As this gets appealed up through the state courts and then up through the federal courts, those courts tend to rule more on the question of the law versus the question of the facts. This makes it more likely that the USSC will decide either directly or indirectly the question of the law wrt Section 3.

    Is there any chance in h*ll that the writers of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment did not want to disallow someone like Robert E Lee or Jefferson Davis from becoming POTUS?
     
  18. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    A trump-appointed maga ussc ruling against trump? I have a better chance of dating Jennifer Lawrence...
     
  19. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  20. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    this is highly regarded by the people pushing it

    Trump was unlikely to win these states anyway, and even if they are successful in getting him thrown off the ballot, it would only drive GOP turnout all down the ticket
     
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