I thought you said it best. "All that happens is that we set a weak pick, get pushed farther from the basket, eat up valuable clock time, and wind up with an iso . . . right back where we started. " I'd add that it helps when the dribbler is a little bit more consistent on when he *doesn't* use the pick, and goes the opposite way or looks to use the pick twice. Griffin seems quite confused sometimes trying to read what Francis wants him to do. Nash seems much more decisive. If he attacks away from the pick, or reuses the pick, he seems much quicker about it. Francis's dribbling is often loopy, and he will never attempt to pinch his man off at the pick. btw: Nowitzki doesn't set a great pick, either, and teams do push Nash out away from him. It's like the league has really learned something over the past few years...everyone is trapping the high PnR. Did this come out of Pippen disrupting the Stockton/Malone pnr in the Finals? hmmm, I wonder. But, Nash just doesn't give up like Francis does. He'll whip the pass to Nowitzki more (although, Dirk is a bigger target than Mo, Kenny, Griffin are). What infuriates me is watching Francis dribble out away from the trap with no intention try to beat it with anything other than his dribble, as if he's given up. Like you say, it looks like he says to himself..."Oh, trap, that means I'm supposed to convert this to an ISO now."
Good point, as well as how a player fits within a system. Stack and Rip, for example. Stack's most positively acknowledged season was with Detroit, then this season his and Rip's fortunes each changed 180 degrees. Carlisle has made the players and Larry Bird look really good.
this is so chicken or egg. Look at Gooden's numbers going up (especially efficiency) when placed in the space-n-watch offense of McGrady versus the "system" Hubie Brown was installing. Also, what you are implying is that Larry Brown's system is producing great numbers for Kenny, but it failed to produce great numbers for Harpring the year prior. That's kinda contradictory. You are also implying that the system makes Malone and Stockton. The point the "its the players more than the system" people believe is guys like Kidd, Malone and Stockton bring their own system to the league. They are the ones who make it work, and all systems will fail without the leaders able to run it. Point being that we can try, but the Rockets would not be able to successfully run the Kings or Utah's system. It would take time and some different players.
I think we have 2 problems. Francis is not decisive and reverts back to his iso comfort zone. Novitski is very good off the dribble and as a shooter, so even if the defense pushes back their pnr, he is able to take advantage of whatever space is created. When our pnr is pushed back, we get Griffin for a 3 pointer. (Not that I don't just absolutely love Griffin's unguided-seek-and-destroy-rim jumper). In some ways, this is why i wouldn't mind gambling on Odom's pothead.
The Carlisle thing is getting tiresome. Detroit's offense is the ugliest offense in the league. besides, Rip has been running around screens wherever he's been. That's what he does. Detroit is all about Ben Wallace and the defense. There offensive system is not something to emulate. Run Rip around picket fences, or pass to Corliss and watch, or spread out the floor and let Cliffy heave 3s so Ben can rebound them. That again points to players vs system. Carlisle might be a good offensive coach, but you sure can't tell by watching his team play.
Detroit wins, that is they win games. They are playing. Talented? Not terribly. Successful? You betcha. My point to newgirl was that HOW the player fits in whatever system or team is vitally important. PS It is a great deal easier fitting one player into an existing, successful team than trying to build to that point. Mario Elie didn't fit anywhere but he was a great pick up for a Rox team on the verge of greatness. This Rox team is still without an identity, a clear path on how to incorporate talent into team into WINS.
HP, I got your point now and I pretty much agreed with you. System is important but great players who suit the system make the great system work. I think I've said it several times that we run ISO offense because that's the best way of suiting and using Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley. That way they could take advantage of their quick first step and hide their weakness (i.e. passing ability). It's just unfortunate (or fortunate depending on your view) that apparently that the same kind of ISO offense didn't suit Yao Ming.
What I ment with "nuff said" was that our system did not produce the passing and cutting that Denver's did. Something I think we ALL can agree is something we WANT from our team. Correct? But I am not going to say that the SYSTEM is the most important thing or is the only problem. CLEARLY the players are the most important thing, and then a system that maximizes the players abilities. I think a more passing motion offense will benefit Yao Ming so that is what I think we should use. Again, it is not JUST the system but the combination of system and players. Those teams you mention do not have the players/talent. "Francis doesn't have a chance in hell in running one" = why he should move to 2 guard next year and a pass first PG brought in to run the offense. Take off Francis' shackles and free him from trying to create for others everytime down the court and just let him score. That is maximizing his strengths and lessening his weaknesses. HP, again to clarify, I wasn't trying to say that the SYSTEM is entirely the problem. It is both the SYSTEM & the PLAYERS. We need to tweak the roster but at the same time need more movement on the offensive end. More passing, cutting, moving without the ball, better pick and rolls etc. That's what I am saying. Have the team play as a TEAM. Make the defense have to WORK on defense instead of just standing around guarding guys outside the arc. Let our offense dictate to the defense instead of our offense reacting to their defense.
His, and yours, are valid questions. Simple answer is 1st to establish a scheme, a system. 2nd to commit to it. 3rd to plug the right players into said committed scheme/system. (Those players may or may not be on the present roster as there is no existing scheme/system.)
Another argument, which I forgot to note, against the current Iso and spokes-and-wheel approach is that, two years ago, the NBA adopted rule changes targeted SPECIFICALLY towards putting it out of commission. They haven't really worked, as Hou and other teams still run it, but then again, the rox haven't won as many games since then either, in spite of a talent upgrade.
hold on...of course there's a system. I mean, we can laugh at Rudy and the coaches all we want, but they are not just cheerleaders watching a pickup game. Don't take it to such an extreme by saying there's "no existing system." Just because we don't see great execution doesn't mean the players are presumably following some plan of no plan. It is more about Francis and Mobley having no plan, taking us right back to disagreeing on the degree of difference in player execution vs system execution.
If the system is ignored by the implementing troops then no system exists. Note the stressing of the 'commit' to the 'system'. My concern with the resident braintrust is that they are not in control if their system is ignored. If it is not being ignored there must not be a system. PS 'we can laugh at Rudy and the coaches all we want'? No, we are crying.
this is a non sequitur no matter how much you try to do your semantics dance. And in terms of basketball, I don't think I've ever seen an entire team ignore a system in unison.... I can't see making that statement unless you are talking mainly about Steve Francis--the primary "implementer." Further, you are assuming that it is being "ignored" versus poor execution/decisions and bad reads. You act like the players are Xs and O puppets on a coach's string. In this game, there are systems that require reads. And from my experience, when players really do ignore coaches, it usually makes its way to press eventually. There is no doubt in my mind that Francis was ordered over and over since his rookie year to take the open shot, when it is there....to score. imo, you are using the word "ignore" in some contrived manner to say the problem couldn't possibly be bad execution, lack of ability, experience, teamwork, and just a general inability to add things to the system.
Rudy T must decide on which of three (or more) systems he wants to coach and build his team arround... a) Guard oriented b) Big Man oriented c) General no character type like 02/03. Then he must adapt the Team to the Game plan. This might need major changes in the case of a or b . In the case of c he would proceed as he did last season. If he decides on b) then major changes in his Coaching Staff would be required! System first then Roster second to fit the System!
Well...usually big man offense is better...unless you have JASON KIDD OR GARY PAYTON OR KOBE BRYANT OR TRACY MCGRADY. But we unfortunately don't have any of the players listed above. I think we should go through Yao...but that doesn't mean...just have Yao try to score from the same location every single time on the floor. The other players have to be moving around and trying to get open...cutting and screening and picks and stuff. BUT STILL! YOU NEED GOOD ROLE PLAYERS WITH YOUR SYSTEM! And what is horrible is that the Rockets don't have either one. They don't have an offense and they don't have any role players...mainly shooters. No shooters. UGH. I hope they are better next season!
