[Scared to post] Serious misunderstanding about the Virgin Mary...

I just read through this thread and I was wondering when the sectarian war was going to break out and now I see its Svpernaut against everone else.

From this thread I can see how you might feel persecuted but what I find hard to swallow about your claims that Christians are persecuted in this society is when you say this below.

Yes religious people and specifically Christians are the overwhelming majority of this country. I have a hard time seeing claiming persecution when you're part of the overwhelming majority and not only have people of your faith, fairly outspoken people of your faith heading up the Presidency, Senate and House.

Further while I might not know what its like to be a Christian you might not know what its like to be a non-Christian in this country especially growing up in a fairly religiously conservative part of the country. Try putting up with people demanding that they be allowed to display their religious symbols in governmental institutions. Further to my knowledge I'm yet to hear of forced conversions from Christianity or it being outlawed to follow your own religion in this country. The same can't be said for followers of Native American religions.

So Christians feel persecuted now. If its persecution because Christians can't display the Ten Commandments in the Courthouse or people like thegary gets to mock your religion I'm not sure what persecution is.

Welcome to the America that us Non-Christians have been living with.

 

<B>Sishir Chang

Yes religious people and specifically Christians are the overwhelming majority of this country. I have a hard time seeing claiming persecution when you're part of the overwhelming majority and not only have people of your faith, fairly outspoken people of your faith heading up the Presidency, Senate and House.</b>

Are they not publicly mocked and humiliated and attacked for espousing their faith? Bush confides that he talks to God and we've not heard the sarcastic end of it...

<b>Further while I might not know what its like to be a Christian you might not know what its like to be a non-Christian in this country especially growing up in a fairly religiously conservative part of the country.</b>

Have any of your fellow believers been beheaded like those little girls in Indonesia? Does your faith community tremble in fear or do you deal with some relatively small issues of individual intolerance?

<b>Try putting up with people demanding that they be allowed to display their religious symbols in governmental institutions.</b>

The issue is that there is an effort afoot to DISALLOW such displays. Those displays have always been here... and still are here in many and most ways.

<b>Further to my knowledge I'm yet to hear of forced conversions from Christianity or it being outlawed to follow your own religion in this country. The same can't be said for followers of Native American religions.</b>

That's very regrettable but that was also a century ago. Those religions operate freely now, don't they?

<b>So Christians feel persecuted now. If its persecution because Christians can't display the Ten Commandments in the Courthouse or people like thegary gets to mock your religion I'm not sure what persecution is.</b>

Mockery swings both ways... and I'm not talking Colin Mockery.

 

Great point Mr. Meowgi! Same here, it was when I was in my 20's that I noticed this! The Virgin Mary is very important to the Catholic faith and is revered by most Catholics. She's like a centerpiece!

 

That's known as a "co-mediator." This cannot be so if this verse is correct: 1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

No one that has already departed this life/world can pray for you any more, except for Jesus Himself... according to this passage (read the entire context).

Most Catholics also think that Mary was also translated (or ascended) into Heaven at the time of Jesus' ascension. Not so... If so, then why this verse, in Acts? Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. Mary was in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, awaiting the promise of the Father, as Jesus had instructed those He left on Earth to do.

Many people don't realize this. Why? It's not taught. As a whole, many in oragnized "religion," sadly, and especially in Catholicism, are not encouraged to read the Bible for themselves to a point oof deep study and understanding.

As to Mary's virgin status, Jesus- not a b*stard, etc. Jesus did not have the bloodlines of man, the sinful nature bloodline, as His fathering side. The sin of man did not have any involvement then in breaking the flesh of (sorry for the graphic detail) Mary's birth canal. The Holy Spirit hovered over her womb and He was conceived without any man "knowing" her first. (This is one of the reasons we say "knowing in a Biblical sense" when referring to sexual intercourse.) Since this sinful bloodline was not in Jesus, it was not inherently in Him to sin, part of the reason He lived a sinless life... the only reason that He was the "spotless lamb" given as a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. Because He knew no sin of His own.

Mary's virgin status, as in the first time she "knew" a man, was after Jesus was born. And yes, James (writer of the book of James - one of the most practical books in Scripture) was Jesus' half brother. Same earthly mother, but with a man as his father.. Joseph. Jesus' Father was/is none other than God the Father Himself. So, no. Jesus is not a b*stard.

It's a difficult concept, except a person have the Faith to believe it. And Faith, by the way, is not blind. In fact, Faith is quite the eye opener.

By the way, several other world religions, and even Star Wars, have ripped the idea of a virgin born savior/leader from the ancient prophecies in the Old Testament book of Isaiah, which were fulfilled by Jesus. This explains why some other semi-contemporary writings of "virgin births" exist in antiquity.

But understand this. Jesus fulfilled some 350+ prophecies. The odds of this are staggering, perhaps best explained with this comparision...

Take the state of Texas, cover it from boundary to boundary in every direction in two foot deep stacks of JFK silver dollars. Paint one single, solitary JFK silver dollar the color red out of these across the entire state.
Then blindfold yourself. Now give yourself one shot, after mixing up all of the silver dollars across the state up... one shot to go in and pick the red painted silver dollar on the first try.

The odds of picking the silver dollar are better than one individual fulfilling the prophecies that Jesus did.

So even if the chance of virgin birth were to be 1 in 1,000,000,000... and there had been as many as 12 throughout history, those other prerequisite Messiah indicators could not be claimed by any other individual.

Didn't someone on this BBS claim to be born of a "technical virgin?" Sorry. I doubt you're the antichrist either.

 

This means she was born within the proper confines of God-defined marraige.

Correct.

"Original Sin" was committed by the angel formerly known as Lucifer. The sin was pride. He then became God's adversary, aka Satan, and was cast out of heaven.

"Original Sin" is not a human product. However sin was learned of and embraced or inherited when Eve gave Adam the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... and He took the responsibilty on himself to eat it. Evil, theretofore, was an alien concept to the earth. In the garden of Eden, even animals knew no evil, had no ill will to harm one another, until the "fall of man."

This fall is why the "2nd Adam" -known as Jesus Christ, had to come to restore right relation between God and mankind. Adam was pure until he disobeyed God through the acceptance of a lie. A lie from Satan, who was so prideful, could not stand to see mankind still in constant communion with God, after he (Satan) had been cast out of that relationship.

Adam's sin was disobedience. Interesting that you don't have to teach disobedience to a baby. It's man's inherited nature, since Adam.

Through disobedience, you can learn the temporary pleasures, and lasting guilt of other sin. We also fall into a pride that tells us that we are above our own sinful nature, therefore the "Why do we need God?" question invades our hearts and minds.

But remember, that is in essence the same lie that Satan told Eve. "You don't need to do as He says, if you do you'll miss out on life."

The first question in Genesis was posed by Satan. Is it no wonder then that most who have disbelief or doubt are filled with unending questions?

Questions should not stop. But not being willing to accept answers as absolutes is spiritual immaturity. The immature in the physical never ceases to ask questions out loud, as in the young child.

The spiritually mature learns to accept the answers already provided as truth, and uses their energy to refine their understanding and meditate on the truth in order to know it more perfectly, more completely.

And denial of things you cannot see or touch is logically equivalent to a person denying their internal organs exist. It does not mean it is not true.

Most people have faith in things they know to be true. Just as you trust your key to start your car, and that wind is what makes the leaves of a tree blow... Spiritual Faith has to be learned.

Faith in Christ is easy. It just has to be learned, or grown accustomed to.

But you'll never know if you don't try to learn it. And "Veritas" is Christ.

 

Where does it explain that you can ask a living person to pray for you but not a dead person? Why? Sounds to me like a bunch of people just making up crap.

 

Catholics believe that Mary co-mediates through Christ, in the sense that St. Paul calls us all to be co-redeemers in Christ. Based around the idea that she is there suffering with Christ at his death, wrenching her hands in dirt and going through the pain of losing her son, the son that could only be born with her consent. Of course this theory has not been declared ex cathedra, or dogma, as yet.

Assumed is the correct verbage

I don't know where you are getting your info but here is a good rundown of the doctrine on her assumption...from http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.

The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."

The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again? There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.

With all due respect this is pretty darn insulting. You yourself have been shown to be ignorant about the Catholic doctrine regarding her, and then are quick to condemn others for upholding that doctrine.

As for this its already been discussed, but I'll leave you a link so that you can read up on it....
http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

 

Yes he's mocked so badly that he was elected to the Presidency twice. Anyway every President since George Washington has been mocked and lampooned. GW Bush is arguably much more religious than GH Bush but that didn't stop GH Bush from being mocked.

If you notice I was talking about America and not world wide and yes Buddhist believers have been killed recently. Some Buddhist monks were beheaded in Thailand by suspected Islamic insurgents, Buddhists are killed regularly in Sri Lanka by Hindu insurgents and lets not forget the destruction of come of the greatest historic treasures of Buddhist art by the Taliban.

This ties into my point that Christianity has gotten special treatment through most of the history of this country. Well I've never been allowed to go to the state house and post a monument to the 4 Noble Truths or have teachers in public schools lead a chant of the Heart Sutra. You're complaining now that Christianity is just being treated as other religions have.

Yes they do and so does Christianity so why cry that Christianity is being persecuted now? As I said Christianity has gotten special treatment historically while other religions haven't or gotten special treatment in terms of being outlawed.

Of course it does. You're free to mock thegary back. I just don't see how mockery of Christianity is persecution. People mock other religions too, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. Watch the Simpsons and you' ll see all sorts of religions mocked. Christians are free to practice they're religion as much as anyone else.

 

Christians aren't persecuted here in the US the way they are in some other countries.

When a Christian practices evangelism here there are more instances of persecution.

While sharing my Christian faith with others I have had people come up and hit me, spit on me, throw hard objects at me and threaten and curse me. That has happened on numerous occasions while sharing my faith with someone else.

If I am sharing my faith with someone who does not want to hear it I move on down the road. But I have experienced hostility while evangelizing.

Preaching the gospel to others is a significant part of Christianity as Christ commanded His disciples to do that. When it is done with respect, kindness and courtesy it is a good witness of Christ's love and message.

If more Christians would share their faith with others, what some call the Great Commission, there would be more persecution in America.

 

Rhester;

I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you and other Christians don't believe I'm advocating anything like that. That given I've had Christians tell me I'm worshipping a false god and that I and my family will burn in Hell. As a kid I had a home room teacher threaten to put me in detention because I said I agreed with the science teacher on Evolution. This was in public school and I was 10 at the time.

As I've said before I have nothing against the free practice of religion and we live in a pluralistic society founded on freedom of religion. While individuals of all stripes will attack and insult each other over all things I don't think that qualifies as a systematic persecution like what's happening the PRC now or what Native Americans went through as recently as 60 years ago.

 

<b>Sishir Chang

Yes he's mocked so badly that he was elected to the Presidency twice. Anyway every President since George Washington has been mocked and lampooned. GW Bush is arguably much more religious than GH Bush but that didn't stop GH Bush from being mocked.</b>

It's called majority.



<b>If you notice I was talking about America and not world wide and yes Buddhist believers have been killed recently. Some Buddhist monks were beheaded in Thailand by suspected Islamic insurgents, Buddhists are killed regularly in Sri Lanka by Hindu insurgents and lets not forget the destruction of come of the greatest historic treasures of Buddhist art by the Taliban.</b>

Of course I knew that. I was pointing up how good we have it in America. There is no large-scale persecution of religious minorities in America.


<b>This ties into my point that Christianity has gotten special treatment through most of the history of this country. Well I've never been allowed to go to the state house and post a monument to the 4 Noble Truths or have teachers in public schools lead a chant of the Heart Sutra. You're complaining now that Christianity is just being treated as other religions have.

Yes they do and so does Christianity so why cry that Christianity is being persecuted now? As I said Christianity has gotten special treatment historically while other religions haven't or gotten special treatment in terms of being outlawed.</b>

The nation was founded on Judeo-Christian traditions. Why is it a surprise that the nation's fabric or institutions reflect that?


<b>...I just don't see how mockery of Christianity is persecution. People mock other religions too, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. Watch the Simpsons and you' ll see all sorts of religions mocked. Christians are free to practice they're religion as much as anyone else.</b>

I think there is an issue with turning against some of the traditions that have made America so great over her existence. There is a genuine fear that as we undermine those traditions, America could be brought down. There is even some credible evidence that that is happening.

 

Agree.

That's sad you were threatened by a teacher for voicing your ideas. And I have talked to many Christians who are ineffective at sharing their faith. Most don't even try. There are many great examples in the New Testament of 'evangelization'. Jesus did it often.

What happened to Native Americans is a travesty and a tragedy. It hurts to think of it.

Without a proper understanding of the character and nature of God- I think judgment and Hell don't make sense to many people. Telling someone you are going to burn in Hell is obviously not an effective witness, it sounds to me it may be an arrogant attempt at manipulation. Hell is real but it must be understood.

God wants us to appeal to the human conscience. A proper Gospel witness will touch the conscience, enlighten the intellect and ultimately reveal the love of God that is in Jesus Christ.

 

True so as a Christian majority why would you ever feel persecuted?

That is a debatable point considering Democracy isn't a Biblical concept nor are individual liberties. At the same many of the Judeo-Christian traditions like "don't rob, rape or murder" are practically universal. This country was founded on Western traditions no doubt but those traditions have as much to do with Ancient Pagan Greece as they do with Christianity. Example if Judeo-Christian traditions are what this country was founded on why is the Ancient Roman Goddess of Justice placed above Moses on the USSC. Also Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence doesn't say "Jehovah" or "Jesus" but says 'Creator' which could mean everything from Vishnu to Ottomans Flying Spaghetti Monster.

So if this country turns against Christian traditions the country goes down the toilet? I guess us Non-Christians just have no morals.

 

Rhester;

You're a credit to your religion.

 

<B>Sishir Chang

True so as a Christian majority why would you ever feel persecuted?</b>

Why do you feel empathy for rhester's "persecution" and challenge me on this point?


<b>That is a debatable point considering Democracy isn't a Biblical concept nor are individual liberties.</b>

Isn't Free Will at the heart of the Christian message?

<B>At the same many of the Judeo-Christian traditions like "don't rob, rape or murder" are practically universal. This country was founded on Western traditions no doubt but those traditions have as much to do with Ancient Pagan Greece as they do with Christianity.

Example if Judeo-Christian traditions are what this country was founded on why is the Ancient Roman Goddess of Justice placed above Moses on the USSC. Also Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence doesn't say "Jehovah" or "Jesus" but says 'Creator' which could mean everything from Vishnu to Ottomans Flying Spaghetti Monster.</b>

Why does the US Senate still open with a traditional prayer?

<B>So if this country turns against Christian traditions the country goes down the toilet? I guess us Non-Christians just have no morals.</b>

I guess it depends on what takes the country down if it goes that way? I didn't say that you have no morals. Stop baiting the argument.

 

Is it? In what respect? That we have no Free Will? That we all have Free Will? I'm curious... what is this Free Will of which you speak, giddy? I have a point I'll get to, but I want the context first.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

umm not to but in on the conversation, but I'm pretty sure the Christian religion asserts that there is free will....

carry on....

 

It does? Then why do some Christians keep attempting to govern the free will of others? Just curious.



Keep D&D Civil.