You mean these 'irrefutable' facts? As for the rest... When did I ever say it was wrong? You will have to quote me on that one, because I have no problem with the idea of a wall. The problem is -- and has always been -- the 'route' of the wall/fence, which the ICJ made clear, not the evil Muslims/Arabs. Again, you're presuming I am against the wall, which I am not, or that I somehow would like to see Israelis killed or be exposed to danger. I guess everyone has an ancient claim to the land in question The "land" or who has 'claim' to it is not what's being discussed here, but as usual, you're all over the map. If we lived in the 15th century, then sure, yes. Even if that was the case, your argument is worthless because the Israelis themselves would never annex the West Bank or Gaza, and for good reason...think about it for a bit, it might come to you. Again, who cares about the land? It's not what's being discussed; wrong thread, too. Ideally, we would have a one-state solution for both Jews and Arabs, but again, that's beside the point. You're ignoring the fact that the Israelis have absolutely zero interest in annexing the Palestinian-majority West Bank or Gaza. Therefore, your premise is false. The Israelis do NOT want to annex the West Bank and Gaza strip. Get it through that thick skull of yours. Oh, again, it's called "Palestine"... LOL! Show me where in this thread -- as you claim -- I "decried" Israel and "stood up for the oppressed Muslim dominated countries." When you do so, I will answer your question. Until then, it's merely another instance of you pulling 'facts' out of your arse and making up crap to further whatever nonsense you spew. Furthermore, are you insinuating that all Muslims think alike or have the same exact position on all issues? Do you also think that all Asians look the same? What about Mexicans, are they all grass-cutters? Proof? The only factual statement you've made all night.
Return the lands of Palestine and Israel to their rightful owners! Phoenicia's claim predates both those of the Jewish Israelis and the Islamic Arabs. From this point forward the only official language is to be Phonecian, and people caught worshiping any god other than El or Baal will be summarily executed, as will people who openly express their allegance as Moabites or Samaritans. Though technically incorrect, people speaking Punic Phonecian will only be subject to public lashings.
Israelis are not Borg. They do have individual opinions which vary from person to person. There is a significant portion of the Israeli population who would like nothing better than to annex the West Bank and Gaza.
The Israelis are busy trying to protect their own Jewish majority, not add a few million more Arabs to the fold. It's a matter of demographics, and the majority of Israelis recognize that reality. The only alternative is ethnic cleansing/genocide, which is not much of an option. That's what the whole 'disengagement' policy is about. They certainly want to annex the Jewish settlements in the West Bank, but they have no interest in creating another South Africa apartheid situation where you have a minority oppressing a majority, where they would effectively have to renounce democracy and the principle of 'one man, one vote.' That's what I am referring to.
Actually, its not a significant majority at all but its a powerful one. It's almost parallel to the situation in America with the religious right wielding ungodly amounts of influence relative to their actual size in America except in a more extreme way. The Israeli government has always been forced to placate the religious right except going so far as to doing things like exempting them from military service, closing down all buses and public office on sabbath, and placating to them politically in many ways. But to say a majority supports this position isn't true at all. People there vote in a reactionary way the way some people voted here and the fear mongering that we see here all the time occurs on larger scales there as well. I do believe at some point the Israelis will vote the right wing out of government. The implosion of Likud was the start and if Labor can just muster a legitimate campaign strategy (the criticisms of democratic campaign strategies seem to apply to them as well) they might be able to break open the election. Also, another issue is the party composition of the Israeli electorate. There are parties like Shas and Shinui that don't take a firm stance on the Palestinian question and instead focus on other local issues and pick up votes and latch themselves to the leading party to form a coalition. So it almost boils down to a two party system with Kadima and Labor. All the other parties just seem to balance each other out or go with whoever's on top.
Ethnic cleansing gets conflated with genocide all the time, though they are not the same thing. Israel should not commit genocide against the Palestinians. Isreal should ethnically cleanse (perhaps radically gentrify, deport, any other term for kick out) the Palestinians from what area they feel they need for security purposes, providing a fair payment to anyone whose land is taken, and build their wall to encompass this land. Returning to the pre-war borders is not a reasonable solution, especially since there can be no real guarantee of peace, and the animosity that exists would make a one-state solution less than desirable for the Israelis. The only courses I could see going forward are what I described above (which is what they seem to be moving toward with the wall), or the status quo. People need to start understanding that the Palestinians backed the wrong horse. They have lost and they are now bargaining from a position of weakness. Any concession they get from Israel is a gift, as there is not a lot they can offer in exchange.
No, Say it isn't so !! Israelis want to annex the land they won in a war? It can't be, why that would make DaDakota.....RIGHT...again !! Tiger......you are the one spouting crap out your bungy hole, you have been destroyed so thoroughly that you need to give Mick from Rocky a call to cut your eyes open so you can see the truth. Get a grip man.....Borders have been defined by wars forever....not the 15th century...but the 20th century...which is what I was talking about..... The 1967 war, was IN THE 20TH century and won by Israel. Based on that FACT...FACT...FACT !!!!!!!!! They have the right to occupy and own that land....if they choose to do a 2 state set up where the Palastinians get some land, then good for them.......howver it is completely THEIR choice as the victors......unless another more powerful state forces them out through war or politics. And do I think all Muslims think alike, don't be silly, I am not the one calling people names in this thread..... DD
Well, I agree with you here. They are clearly afraid of the arab populace becoming a majority, and the wall and a possible 2 state situation is their answer. My point is that they have the right to do that if they want, it is their country. So, since this thread is about the wall in Saudi Arabia, and I am comparing the lack of an uproar about that wall, but the uproar in Israel about them doing the same thing........that is where I am coming from. And, yes, I know there are varying reasons for both walls, but similar ones as well, as in my paragraph above. Can't you see the hypocrisy? DD
Dude, what are you talking about? If Israel chooses to annex the land, the way it historically works is that the people on said land become citizens of the country. That is exactly why they refuse to do it. Israel can do one of two things: Leave the land or annex it. They choose to do neither, and that is where the problem lies. Unless you believe it is OK for people to oppress? Perhaps you also think Hitler was justified in his genocide actions because, well, the spoils go to the victors and it was "completely his choice" to do what he wanted with the people he conquered?
Major, People become citizens or get deported, and Israel can do either of them if they choose. Look, I personally think they should build the wall, get out of Gaza and the West bank and let the Palestinian people have their own country, and seriously limit the flow of people between Israel and Palestine. My point is that it is Israel's choice...they won the war, they get to make the rules....now the international community can have a voice, but clearly unless they are willing to go to war or put political pressure on Israel, that voice is moot. The reason I find it all humorous is that the Saudi's are building a wall for many of the EXACT reasons that Israel is, and there is no uproar..... DD
It might be closer to the same reason we're building a wall with Mexico...it's possible there are many on this board who would come out against that proposition who won't do the same with the Saudis wall.
Which I do think is stupid......we should just annex Mexico and be done with it. As for the wall, here is a quote I posted earlier which outlines similarities in the two walls... DD
I agree - but Israel, for 30 years, has done neither - that's the problem. Of course they CAN. No one is debating that - if they couldn't, it wouldn't be happening. That doesn't mean you don't debate what they *should* do. Why is it humorous? The Saudi's aren't oppressing the people that they are building the wall for. If the US built a wall in middle of Kansas to block in a community of illegal immigrants, you'd sure as hell hear an uproar.
There is nothing humorous about a religious group being given a homeland in territory that contained a majority of people from a different religion and then having that religious group eject the inhabitants of that land because of their religion. It's absurd and you can go around in circles about the victor and the spoils but the whole existence of Israel is based on an outrageous land grab and not a war. What will happen in this situation is that the shoe will be on the other foot one day and Israel will be attacked in a serious way either by Iran or some coalition of Arab/Muslim countries and then you can defend it and all of the consequences of such a war, which will be very serious, here by talking about to the victor go the spoils.
SM; You've raised this point a few times in regard to Israel. In that case then do you think what the Sudanese government is doing in Darfur is acceptable or what the Bosnian Serbs did in Srebinica since the Sudanese government argument for driving out Black African Darfurians and Bosnian Serb argument for driving out Bosnian Muslims is roughly similar to the argument you are making for the Israeli? For the interest of security ethnic groups who don't wholly submit to the more powerful group should be driven out and their land annexed.
Do you have barbed wire at the top and bottom of the fence, then another similar fence with a pyramid of barbed wire in between, guard posts every 100 yards with helipads, silent alarms and armed guards? I'd like to see a terrier get past that! I find the fence debate in the States interesting because it was not something we could even contemplate during the Cold War. We couldn't criticize the Berlin Wall if we put up a fence and we couldn't have national ID cards as long as we were criticizing the USSR for internal passports. Now that they're gone, we can adopt their population control measures. As for Saudi Arabia, it is going to be pretty sad to see refugees fleeing the Iraq civil war get caught between enemy militias and the Saudi fence.
