Saudi Rape Victim To Get Additional 110 Lashes For Speaking to News Media

If you're really interested in studying and understanding the religion, then yes that's pretty much what I am saying. Read, gather knowledge, even consult the different 'schools' (or mazhabs) and form your own opinion. Don't 'hand pick' cases that conform to what your preconception of "Islam" or "Christianity" or "Judaism" is, I know it's human nature and it's a difficult urge to overcome, because people have constructivist tendencies, they seek comfort in the knowledge that they're "right." (whatever that means to them, individually, and within a group context). But it's a worthy endeavor if you want to avoid the common misconceptions and sort through the various 'agendas' out there. A Muslim will tell you Islam is the "only" way; a Christian will tell you Jesus is The way. Heck, you have people in Iraq killing each other because each claims the other is a 'heretic', and they're bad Muslims.

I've come across a number of non-Muslim scholars that have made a career out of studying religion (some of them are comparativists), and it's amazing how much you can learn from them, because they tend to cast the proverbial net widely and survey a wide range of historical accounts, not to know "who's right" (if everyone claims they're right, whom are you to believe?), but to learn of the diverse views out there, may be even trace it back to some 'uniqueness' that -- say -- differentiates Indonesian Islam from Senegalese Islam, or American Islam from Saudi Islam, et al. There is much historical context that gets lost on people, even Muslims themselves tend to bemoan the fact that there is no "uniformity" amongst Muslims. Had they paused and observed the 'uniqueness' of the local cultures and how different Muslims adopted Islamic customs into their own traditions/cultures, they would understand why. A Wahhabist isn't an Ismaili isn't a Sufi...

I am not criticizing you or anyone else who's critical of Saudi; heck, I've been very critical of Saudi in the past, going back to when I first started to post here. So that's not the point. I wasn't calling you or others "demagogues", the post wasn't directed at any one individual, but rather a general critique.

 

I'm trying to understand this... So a man not seeing state enforced jail time (forget the financial penalties he would receive in a divorce court) for cheating on his wife ( and aside from the social and spiritual repurcussions) is worse than not allowing a woman to drive a car, vote or wear a swimsuit? Maybe I have too much freedom as I'm having a difficult time grasping this one.

 

You know if saudi's don't like their laws they can just leave It is hard to immigrate just like that you need to get visa's etc.

 

Unreal isn't it.

DD

 

I finally forced myself to read this thread. We read about these incidents from time to time, and I wonder how many simply go unreported. I would guess most are not reported, this incident being a clear example of why.



"Most of the women in Saudi dont need to drive, or work. They enjoy lives being driven around in Limos and Maybachs. They get an education for the sake of getting an education, not to make money. Who the heck would work when they have fathers and husbands making a lot more than 6 figures. You can compare their cultural lifestyle to ours." - adeelsiddiqui

adeelsiddiqui, you should ponder what the above statement says about you. If you honestly believe this is the case in Saudi Arabia, then you live in a world far removed from that of most Saudis. You live in a world of privilege for which you should be grateful. You should also be grateful that you are not a woman. My son's best friend is Muslim. His mother drives a car. She drives a car load of male teenagers to school events. She also wears a headscarf. Who cares?

Let me say that I'm being very restrained in my posting here. If I told you what I think about this incident in Saudi, as well as all the others, and how women are treated there, and what I think of the excuses made for that behavior, it wouldn't make pleasant reading for you.



D&D. Attempt Civility. I know it's Difficult at Times, But we should Try.

Impeach Bush for Holding Hands with an Idiot.

 

But it would be pleasant reading for the rest of us.

Dont hold back, unleash your fury on these fools!!!

 

Nope!



D&D. Attempt Civility. I know it's Difficult at Times, But we should Try.

Impeach Bush for Holding Hands with an Idiot.

 

Unless one is trying to practice Islam, what would be the point of trying to find its "true nature" or what the Koran really says. To a non-believer like me, the actions of adherents are far more important than what different scholars on the religion say. I couldn't care less if the Koran says to treat women with respect, because in far too much of the Muslim world, they are not treated as such. I couldn't care less whether jihad is defined as an internal struggle against oneself by the Koran, I care instead that practitioners define it as killing infidels. As one who doesn't believe in Islam, I don't care what the foundational principles are, I care how others interpret it in ways that affect innocent people.

 

absolutely. for the average person this isn't about theology. its about the impact the religion/ideology has on the world. and to to insist on analyzing in a vacuum is absurd.

 

What matters to the average person is of little interest to me. the average person is an ignorant fool, one who would rather come to quick and decisive conclusions than ponder the argument, or 'other' side. The average person is much more interested in 'black and white', not comprehending the fact that we exist -- for the most part -- in a world of 'grey'.

The average man is a simplistic being, driven by his instincts instead of his brain, my interest in him is limited to the knowledge of how he's manipulated by the intellectual man, and the self-interested man; the average man is a mere mean to an end. He's a reactionary man...not traits that are worthy of praise or consideration.

So do as you wish, I am just telling you what I would do. If you prefer the comforts of having a reactionary 'intellect' (if it can even be called that), then by all means...suit yourself.

 

Barbarism. State supported mind you.

 

Yeah. And you are so far above all that. Congratulations.

 

thats interesting given the notion of ijma in sunni islam.

 

Are these your words or a quote by Adolf Hitler?

 

A 5 year old boy, hungry, was caught stealing bread. He was punished by running a car over his left hand.

There's picture on the net. Help yourself.

 

you hate islam, they treat women badly, you use your hate of islam to criticize their treatment of women, oh the irony.

 

How is that ironic?

 

because its all based on lack of respect

edit: he shows as much lack of respect for islam as they do for women, yet he criticizes islam for its lack of respect of women

 

anyway, the problem isn't islam, the problem is islamic law, could you imagine what our laws would be like if there is no separation of church and state.

 

I'd imagine it would be very similar to those same islamic (sharia) laws.