Sandberg and Biggio

sportscenter just had bagwell and biggio as the #2 and #1 current players on the bubble for the hof. Their comments for biggio said that his current stats "might already have him in"

 

I think a good argument could be made that biggio has had a better career than sandburg. he certainly has better stats. regardless, they both will get in. just probably not on the first ballot

 

Well if sportscenter said it than it must be true...
I just think too much stock is put into longevity. Craig was never a power hitter or even a great hitter...just a good on-base guy and had a good glove. He'll always be remembered as a choker to me...I guess I just put too much stock in performance...

 

Sandberg, a 9 time gold glove winner along with 1 MVP.

Yet Biggio's 4 GG's and a couple MVP votes are somehow equal to this accomplishment.

Sandberg can't get in and might take awhile to do so. Yet some here feel Craig is a shoo-in. I don't know.

 

I think it's just the opposite. You obviously haven't put much stock into the players' on-field performance. over 2000 + games, biggio out performance sandberg in the batter's box. 117 ops+ to 114 for ryno. Biggio's 1997 season was also better than any of ryno's season including sandberg's 1984.


If 14 games out weighs the accomplishments of an entire career. then why are ted williams, ernie banks, etc in the hall of fame? biggio's whole career should be good enough to get him in the hall.

 

You don't have to convince me man. Just see if he gets in and remember what you said here. I've got my money on everyone here being a biased Astros fan, but we'll see.

 

Him getting in and everyone here being biased Astros fans are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

All you need to know when comparing Sandberg and Biggio is that Sandberg was the best 2nd basemen in baseball during his career. There wasn't even a close second. Biggio on the other hand has always played 2nd fiddle to Roberto Alomar. There was a couple of years where Jeff Kent has been clearly better, and also Edgar Alfonso. With Sandberg, I can't remember any season where I said, this 2nd basemen is clearly having a better year.

Also, there is no point in comparing Biggio's 97 season with any of Sandberg's best years. Sandberg pouned 30 HR's in 1989 and 40 in 1990. Those were two seasons where you had to just say "DAMN!" at the time. No second basemen had better single season HR totals at the time. By the 97 and 98 season, Biggio's output gets lost in the macro view, with Griffey, McGwire, and Sosa blasting 50 plus homeruns a season.

And you have also got to consider that outside of 1987, offenses were just anemic during Sandberg's era. 1988, I think Gerald Perry won the NL batting title with a .307 AVG and Strawberry won the HR title with 39 dingers. Glen Davis was 2nd with 30 HR's.

Also, the fact that Sandberg's prime only last 9 years speaks more for the change in nutrition and weight training.

 

you're missing my point entirely. i'm not saying that biggio is as good as ted williams or barry bonds...i'm saying that the stats from the playoffs, which you use to label biggio a choker, are not nearly as important to HOF voters as you think...it's not like in other sports. williams and bonds put up horrible postseason numbers...they're overlooked. and marginal regular season players don't get into the HOF because of a few good postseason appearances. it just doesn't work that way in baseball.

being the only other player than Tris Speaker to have 50 doubles and 50 steals in a season is quite an accomplishment. he was a very good middle infielder and very good leadoff hitter for a very long time. he is well respected in media circles. i think he'll get in. if you think being a nice guy hurts him, you're just wrong...the HOF is, in my respects, a popularity contest as well.

 

LOL. I don't think this at all. He might get in...I just don't think he deserves to be in the hall with those other guys, you think 50 and 50 makes him an automatic? I don't know. I guess doubles really excites a lot of people here.
If you look at Sandberg's accomplishments in my other posts compared to Biggio, can you say the Hall will see them as basically the same player? I don't think so. Sandberg has over twice the number of Gold Gloves and an MVP to boot. And Sandberg STILL can't get in. But Craigs a shoo-in? I don't know man.

 

Sandberg not getting in his first two seasons does not mean he can't get in. It means he has not gotten in yet. In baseball, being "first ballot" is a big deal, so only the absolute best players get in on the first ballot. I am fully confident, as are many others, that Sandberg will get in eventually. I forsee the same thing happening to Biggio. He won't be first ballot, but he will get in, eventually.

And as for the differences between the two, sure homeruns are sexier than doubles, but if the slugging percentages are close, there is no reason to believe that Sandberg was any more productive as a power hitter than Biggio. And even though Sandberg has more gold gloves and an MVP, Biggio's prime just happened to coincide with the influx of crushing homerun hitters like McGuire, Sosa and Bonds. It's hard to be acknowledged for one's stellar play when that sort of thing is going on, and Biggio still got MVP considerations in multiple different years. On top of that, he was an All-Star at two very different positions, something that has never been done before (as I recall). I think it will be enough to get him in.

 

Sandberg should be in and Biggio too...

DD

 

We know Pete Rose had Hall of Fame numbers.


But what about some of today's current major leaguers? ESPN's Tim Kurkjian selected 10 active players who are on the "Hall of Fame bubble."


Take a look at the credentials for each player and then vote for the one you think is most worthy of Hall of Fame status.


10. Juan Gonzalez
Hall of Fame case: 429 home runs, 1,387 RBI, .296 career average, two MVP Awards, 34 years old.


9. Edgar Martinez
Hall of Fame case: career .315 average is awfully high for someone with 297 home runs. Two batting titles. Being a DH won't help his case, another 200 RBI (1,198 career) would help.


8. Manny Ramirez
Hall of Fame case: .317 career average, 347 home runs, 1,140 RBI. Still just 31.


7. Mariano Rivera
Hall of Fame case: Cooperstown hasn't been kind to electing relievers, but Rivera has been the best reliever in postseason history (7-1, 30 saves, 0.75 ERA). No closer has delivered in as many big games as him. He's has 283 career saves; 350 seems achievable.


6. Fred McGriff
Hall of Fame case: Needs nine home runs for 500, which, for him, is a must for the Hall. He is hurt by his lack of identity with one team, but his career numbers are very similar to those of Willie Stargell.


5. Tom Glavine
Hall of Fame case: 49 victories short of 300, which is attainable at age 37. Add two Cy Young Awards, 32 postseason starts and no trips to the disabled list, and he's on the doorstep.


4. Frank Thomas
Hall of Fame case: It's impossible to look past his first eight seasons, which were Jimmy Foxx-esque. Even with a few down years, he has 418 home runs, he's a lifetime .310 hitter and he's 205 RBIs away from Mike Schmidt and George Brett. And he won two MVP Awards.


3. Barry Larkin
Hall of Fame case: His defense, durability as a young player, 377 steals, .295 career average and nine .300 seasons, 2,240 hits and he's done more than most Hall of Fame shortstops. Also won an MVP Award.


2. Jeff Bagwell
Hall of Fame case: 419 home runs, 1,421 RBI (170 RBIs from the top 25 all time). He's four stolen bases away from joining Hank Aaron and Willie Mays as the only players with a .300 career average, 400 homers and 200 steals. One MVP Award.


1. Craig Biggio
Hall of Fame case: 210 home runs, 2,461 hits, 1,503 runs, 389 stolen bases, 517 doubles and four Gold Gloves at second base might have him in the Hall already.


http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/story?page=bubbleHOF

 

3,000 hits for Bidge would seem to be a long shot.

He would need to hit .275 and average 600 ABs for the next 4 1/2 seasons to reach that milestone.

Seeing as how he is 38 and hasnt hit close to .275 in two years............

I definitely think Bags will get to 500 HRs though. He is 35 and needs 3, 27 HR seasons (38-39 years old) to get there. Heck, if he hits only 20 HRs for the next 4 seasons, he should be there.

 

How about Billy Wagner??

Hell be 32 this upcoming season. If he has 3-5 more good years, he might be around 350 saves for his career. Not to mention his 12.4 K/9 inning ratio, which has to be one of the all time top #s for relievers.

 

Lee Smith has 478 saves and may never get in. While Wagner has always been a good closer, he has never been regarded as the best closer in the league in any particular year. The only reason Rivera is mentioned is his dominance in the post-season. 350 saves and a great K ratio is not enough for Wagner to get in.

 

Actually, make that about 3 1/2 seasons for Biggio. Either way, he ain't getting there (to 3000 hits). I don't think that will keep him out. I just think that it will take him at least as long as it takes Sandberg to get in (should be next year or 2006).

 

Is Lee Smith eligible yet?

I have to think that he is almost a lock.

What were Eckersley's stats?? Rollie Fingers???

 

Lee Smith has been on the ballot for the last two years. Here are his votes:

2003: 210 42.3%
2004: 185 36.6%