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Sanctioned Torture and Our Constitution

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rimrocker, Jun 7, 2004.

  1. Faos

    Faos Member

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    Ashcroft Says Bush Rejects Use of Torture

    Tuesday June 8, 2004


    Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON (AP) - Attorney General John Ashcroft said Tuesday he was not aware of any order by President Bush that would violate U.S. laws or treaties banning torture of military prisoners captured in Iraq or elsewhere in the war on terrorism.

    ``This administration rejects torture,'' Ashcroft declared under tense questioning by members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. But he steadfastly refused to comment directly about a policy paper on this issue, or say whether Bush ever responded to it.

    But, Ashcroft did say, ``The Department of Justice will both investigate and prosecute individual who violate the law. The Torture Act is a law that we include in that violation.''

    The lawyers who wrote the policy paper were not identified by name and were part of a working group writing a policy governing interrogation techniques to be used at the prison for terrorist suspects at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

    Said Ashcroft: ``The president of the United States has not ordered any conduct that would violate the Constitution of the United States, that would violate not one of the laws enacted by the Congress, or that would violate any of the various treaties.''

    Ashcroft would not comment directly on the 2002 departmental memo that laid out a rationale in which the president was not necessarily bound by anti-torture laws or treaties because of his authority as commander in chief to protect national security.

    Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., asked Ashcroft whether there is any presidential order that ``immunizes (from prosecution) interrogators of al-Qaida suspects?''

    ``The president has issued no such order,'' Ashcroft replied.

    The attorney general said the policy memo on this issue would not be made available to the committee, however. And Ashcroft said that while he respected the constitutional right of Congress to ask questions, ``there are certain things that, in the interest of the executive branch operating effectively, that I think it is inappropriate for the attorney general to say.''

    ``Do you think torture might be justified - not a memorandum - just a question to you, attorney general of the United States?'' Biden asked.

    ``I am not going to issue or otherwise discuss hypotheticals. I will leave that to academics,'' Ashcroft replied.

    ``John, you sound like you're in the State Department,'' Biden shot back.

    ``I condemn torture. ... I don't think it's productive, let alone justified,'' Ashcroft responded.

    Biden told Ashcroft ``there's a reason why we (Congress) sign those (anti-torture) treaties'' and it is to protect U.S. military personnel.

    Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said Monday that the final set of interrogation methods adopted for use at Guantanamo in April 2003 are humane, legal and useful - and more restrictive than the methods some had proposed.

    Di Rita described the paper as a staff legal analysis that was part of an internal administration debate on how to obtain intelligence from al-Qaida operatives in U.S. custody, within the confines of a standard of humane treatment. The intelligence sought was to prevent terrorist attacks, he said.

    The contents of the paper, labeled ``draft'' and dated March 6, 2003, were first reported in Monday's The Wall Street Journal. A portion of it was then obtained by The Associated Press. The lawyers who prepared it include attorneys from both the Defense and Justice Departments, and possibly other parts of the government.

    The paper discusses both domestic law and international treaties governing torture and the treatment of prisoners, and concludes Bush has vast legal authority for a number of reasons.

    Mary Ellen O'Connell, a professor of international law at Ohio State University who has seen the draft paper, called its arguments unconvincing.

    ``In every case it finds defenses, narrower readings of that statute, or justifications that allow torture in a wide variety of circumstances,'' she said. ``The legal analysis is weak.''

    Ultimately, the Pentagon adopted a set of 24 interrogation methods it would use at Guantanamo, Di Rita said. The majority are psychological tricks and techniques described in Army field manuals.

    The seven techniques not found in manuals include isolating a prisoner from others, altering his diet (but still providing him adequate food to survive), and questioning him up to 20 hours at a time for up to three days, he said.

    Four of the seven nonstandard methods require at least tacit approval from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. None are torture in the Pentagon's view, Di Rita said.

    ``It's my belief that Americans would find them perfectly reasonable,'' he said. ``There's nothing that involves deliberately applying pain.''

    The four methods have been used on two inmates at Guantanamo, including one who may have been designated a ``20th hijacker'' in the Sept. 11 plot, military officials said.

    Gen. James T. Hill, the senior commander with authority over Guantanamo Bay, said last week that interrogators do not use dogs or drug injections during interrogations.

    However, the lawyers who wrote the March 2003 paper suggested the U.S. government may have the authority to conduct some drug injections during interrogation as long as they don't ``disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.''
     
  2. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Well if Ashcroft said it, it must be true.
     
  3. wouldabeen23

    wouldabeen23 Member

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    Why do you hate America Mc Mark?

    Ashcroft has a Jesus phone...you can NOT impeach his integrity
     
  4. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    This is great news. I'm glad to see that we're finally trying to live up to America's standards instead of Saddam Hussein's.
     
  5. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    An excellent Socratic dialogue on torture and the U.S. Constitution


    From -http://beautifulhorizons.typepad.com/weblog/2004/06/bush_to_the_us_.html

    Q: Are treaties law?

    A: Yes. Article VI Clause 2 of the US Constitution reads as follows:

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. [my emphasis]
    Q: How do treaties become law?

    A: They are signed by the president and must be submitted to the Senate and a 2/3 vote of the Senators present is needed for approval or ratification.

    Q: Is the Convention Against Torture (CAT) a treaty?

    A: Yes.

    Q: Did the president sign it?

    A: Yes, President Reagan signed it on April 11, 1988 and the senate ratified it on October 21, 1994.

    Q: Why did it take so long to be ratified?

    A: Because on signing the treaty the US made a list of several reservations including this one: "That the United States declares that the provisions of articles 1 through 16 of the Convention are not self-executing."

    Q: What did that mean?

    A: That meant that specific laws had to be passed and signed into law which essentially made torture a crime under United States Law and provided for jurisdiction by the US regardless of where torture is committed provided either the "the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender." This law is commonly referred to as either the CAT implementing legislation or the Torture Statute.

    Q: So the terms of the Convention Against Torture is the law of the land in the United States, right?

    A: Yes it is, with the exception of the few reservations the US made.

    Q: Aren't there exceptions when torture can be justified?

    A: No, Article 2 Paragraph 2 states "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

    Q: Did the United States have a reservation regarding this section?

    A: No.

    Q: What is the role of the Executive Branch of the Federal Government?

    A: The role of the Executive Branch is to enforce the laws.

    Q: Who is in charge of the Executive Branch?

    A: The President of the United States.

    Q: So would it be fair to say that the president is the chief law enforcement officer of the United States?

    A: Article II, Section 3 of the US Constitution states that among the president's duties "he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed." So although it is not specifically spelled out in the Constitution that the president is the chief law enforcement officer of the United States, given that he is in charge of the Executive Branch and the Executive Branch enforces the laws and among his duties is to take care that the laws are faithfully executed, your answer is essentially correct.

    Q: So given his role as chief law enforcement officer and given the fact that the Convention Against Torture is the law of the land and given the fact that the Convention Against Torture provides for ""No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture," why would the president's legal advisers say "The president, despite domestic and international laws constraining the use of torture, has the authority as commander in chief to approve almost any physical or psychological actions during interrogation, up to and including torture?"

    A: I cannot possibly explain why.
     
  6. FranchiseBlade

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    I think this cuts to the point of the matter. If there was a dividing this would be it. If you want a Bush type 'either with us or against us' kind of line, then it should be do you support the U.S. constitution or don't you. It's that simple.
     
  7. Faos

    Faos Member

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    I guess if it doesn't come out of the mouths of Michael Moore or Al Franken you guys just don't believe it.
     
  8. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Memo on Torture Draws Focus to Bush
    Aide Says President Set Guidelines for Interrogations, Not Specific Techniques

    By Mike Allen and Dana Priest
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Wednesday, June 9, 2004; Page A03

    The disclosure that the Justice Department advised the White House in 2002 that the torture of al Qaeda terrorist suspects might be legally defensible has focused new attention on the role President Bush played in setting the rules for interrogations in the war on terrorism.

    White House press secretary Scott McClellan said yesterday that Bush set broad guidelines, rather than dealing with specific techniques. "While we will seek to gather intelligence from al Qaeda terrorists who seek to inflict mass harm on the American people, the president expects that we do so in a way that is consistent with our laws," McClellan said.

    White House Counsel Alberto R. Gonzales said in a May 21 interview with The Washington Post: "Anytime a discussion came up about interrogations with the president, . . . the directive was, 'Make sure it is lawful. Make sure it meets all of our obligations under the Constitution, U.S. federal statutes and applicable treaties.' "

    An Aug. 1, 2002, memo from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, addressed to Gonzales, said that torturing suspected al Qaeda members abroad "may be justified" and that international laws against torture "may be unconstitutional if applied to interrogation" conducted against suspected terrorists.

    The document provided legal guidance for the CIA, which crafted new, more aggressive techniques for its operatives in the field. McClellan called the memo a historic or scholarly review of laws and conventions concerning torture. "The memo was not prepared to provide advice on specific methods or techniques," he said. "It was analytical."

    Attorney General John D. Ashcroft yesterday refused senators' requests to make public the memo, which is not classified, and would not discuss any possible involvement of the president.

    In the view expressed by the Justice Department memo, which differs from the view of the Army, physical torture "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." For a cruel or inhuman psychological technique to rise to the level of mental torture, the Justice Department argued, the psychological harm must last "months or even years."

    A former senior administration official involved in discussions about CIA interrogation techniques said Bush's aides knew he wanted them to take an aggressive approach.

    "He felt very keenly that his primary responsibility was to do everything within his power to keep the country safe, and he was not concerned with appearances or politics or hiding behind lower-level officials," the official said. "That is not to say he was ready to authorize stuff that would be contrary to law. The whole reason for having the careful legal reviews that went on was to ensure he was not doing that."

    The August memo was written in response to a CIA request for legal guidance in the months after Sept. 11, 2001, as agency operatives began to detain and interrogate key al Qaeda leaders. The fact that the memo was signed by Jay S. Bybee, head of the Office Legal Counsel, who has since become a federal judge, and is 50 pages long indicates that the issue was treated as a significant matter.

    "Given the topic and length of opinion, it had to get pretty high-level attention," said Beth Nolan, commenting on the process that was in place when she was President Bill Clinton's White House counsel, from 1999 to 2001, and, previously, when she was a lawyer in the Office of Legal Counsel.

    Unlike documents signed by deputies in the Office of Legal Counsel, which are generally considered by federal agencies as advice, a memorandum written by the head of the office is considered akin to a legally binding document, said another former Office of Legal Counsel lawyer.

    The former administration official said the CIA "was prepared to get more aggressive and re-learn old skills, but only with explicit assurances from the top that they were doing so with the full legal authority the president could confer on them."

    Critics familiar with the August 2002 memo and another, similar legal opinion given by the Defense Department's office of general counsel in March 2003 assert that government lawyers were trying to find a legal justification for actions -- torture or cruel and inhumane acts -- that are clearly illegal under U.S. and international law.

    "This is painful, incorrect analysis," said Scott Norton, chairman of the international law committee of the New York City Bar Association, which has produced an extensive report on Pentagon detentions and interrogations. "A lawyer is permitted to craft all sorts of wily arguments about why a statute doesn't apply" to a defendant, he said. "But a lawyer cannot advocate committing a criminal act prospectively."

    The August 2002 memo from the Justice Department concluded that laws outlawing torture do not bind Bush because of his constitutional authority to conduct a military campaign. "As Commander in Chief, the President has the constitutional authority to order interrogations of enemy combatants to gain intelligence information concerning the military plans of the enemy," said the memo, obtained by The Washington Post.

    Critics say that this misstates the law, and that it ignores key legal decisions, such as the landmark 1952 Supreme Court ruling in Youngstown Steel and Tube Co v. Sawyer, which said that the president, even in wartime, must abide by established U.S. laws.
     
  9. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    From the article Faos posted and this one, it's clear Ashcroft is arguing semantics. Take this passage from the Post article below:

    Under questioning, Ashcroft said he could not discuss whether the president issued any orders on the interrogation of detainees, but said: "I want to confirm that the president has not directed or ordered any conduct that would violate any one of those enactments of the United States Congress or that would violate the provisions of any of the treaties as they have been entered into by the United States."

    Ashcroft said he would not discuss the contents of the Justice and Pentagon memos, and would not turn over the Justice memo to the committee. "I believe it is essential to the operation of the executive branch that the president have the opportunity to get information from the attorney general that is confidential," he said.


    The President has not ordered or directed any conduct that would violate any of the treaties or laws because they have all these legal memos that justify how one can order and direct conduct and still stay within their twisted idea of the law. The fact that the memos completely misstate the legal case and are really mere rationalizations for breaking the law is implied in the second paragraph... they don't want to release the memos because then everyone will see how completely bogus the legal reasoning is and everyone will call BS. So, the only thing to do is withhold the memos.

    Honor and dignity indeed.


    ________________________________
    Ashcroft Refuses to Release '02 Memo
    Document Details Suffering Allowed In Interrogations

    By Susan Schmidt
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Wednesday, June 9, 2004; Page A01


    Attorney General John D. Ashcroft told Congress yesterday that he would not release a 2002 policy memo on the degree of pain and suffering legally permitted during enemy interrogations, but said he knows of no presidential order that would allow al Qaeda suspects to be tortured by U.S. personnel.

    Angry Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee called on Ashcroft to provide the document. They said portions that have appeared in news reports suggest the Bush administration is reinterpreting U.S. law and the Geneva Conventions prohibiting torture.

    Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said the memo on interrogation techniques permissible for the CIA to use on suspected al Qaeda operatives "appears to be an effort to redefine torture and narrow prohibitions against it." The document was prepared by the Justice Department's office of legal counsel for the CIA and addressed to White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales.

    The 50-page Justice Department memo said inflicting physical or psychological pain might be justified in the war on terrorism "to prevent further attacks on the United States by the al Qaeda terrorist network." It added that "necessity and self defense could provide justifications that would eliminate any criminal liability."

    The Bush administration has said that the discussion in the memo notwithstanding, al Qaeda and Taliban detainees, including those held at Guantanamo Bay, have been treated in accord with international conventions prohibiting torture.

    The memo and a second written by Pentagon lawyers surfaced in news reports this week amid the ongoing abuse scandal at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. The documents reflect discussions on the legality of softening prohibitions against inflicting pain on al Qaeda suspects abroad, saying the practice may sometimes be justified.

    Ashcroft's hard-line approach to the war on terrorism has drawn criticism from civil libertarians. This time, he came under fire during a scheduled oversight hearing on a day that brought news of the memos.

    "There is no presidential order immunizing torture," Ashcroft told the Judiciary panel. He cited President Bush's statement that al Qaeda captives should be treated in a manner consistent with the Geneva Conventions, even though the administration chose not to designate detainees as prisoners of war.

    Under questioning, Ashcroft said he could not discuss whether the president issued any orders on the interrogation of detainees, but said: "I want to confirm that the president has not directed or ordered any conduct that would violate any one of those enactments of the United States Congress or that would violate the provisions of any of the treaties as they have been entered into by the United States."

    Ashcroft said he would not discuss the contents of the Justice and Pentagon memos, and would not turn over the Justice memo to the committee. "I believe it is essential to the operation of the executive branch that the president have the opportunity to get information from the attorney general that is confidential," he said.

    Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-Del.) and Sen. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) warned Ashcroft that his refusal might place him in contempt of Congress.

    "If such a memo existed, would that -- is that good law? . . . Do you think that torture might be justified?" Biden demanded.

    Ashcroft responded, "I condemn torture. I don't think it's productive, let alone justified."

    Biden told Ashcroft that prohibitions against torture are intended to "protect my son in the military. That's why we have these treaties. So when Americans are captured, they are not tortured. That's the reason, in case anybody forgets it."

    Ashcroft said he needed no reminder, because his own son has been on active military duty in the Persian Gulf.

    Ashcroft added that although he would not comment on the contents of the memo, "it is not the job of the Justice Department or this administration to define torture."

    That, he said, has been done in explicit fashion by Congress in enacting law that bars intentional infliction of "severe physical or mental pain or suffering." Ashcroft said he would not be drawn into a discussion of the legal boundaries of aggressive interrogation.

    Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.), who has taken a tough line against terrorism suspects, alluded to the "high dudgeon" of his Democratic colleagues, saying he wanted to "interject a note of balance here.

    "We ought to be reasonable about this," he told the crowded committee room. "I think there are very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake."

    Bush, Schumer told Ashcroft, "can hardly be blamed for asking you or his White House counsel or the Department of Defense to figure out when it comes to torture, what the law allows." But, Schumer said, the debate and decisions should be public.

    Ranking Democrat Patrick Leahy (Vt.) , angry that Ashcroft had not been before the panel in 15 months, released a fusillade of criticism about his handling of the war on terrorism.

    "Mr. Attorney General, your statement lists accomplishments of the Department of Justice since 9/11. But you leave out a number of things. For example, of course, the obvious: Osama bin Laden remains at large," Leahy said. He said that Ashcroft's "practices seem to be built on secret detentions and overblown press releases."

    But Republicans, particularly committee Chairman Orrin G. Hatch (Utah), lauded the Justice Department's efforts. Ashcroft was unapologetic about his department's efforts to jail or deport suspected terrorist sympathizers.

    "We have been criticized for these tough tactics, but we will continue to use every means within the department and its reach and within the Constitution and the statutes to deter, to disrupt, destroy terrorist threats," he said.
     
  10. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    WaPo editorial...
    ______________

    Legalizing Torture


    Wednesday, June 9, 2004; Page A20


    THE BUSH administration assures the country, and the world, that it is complying with U.S. and international laws banning torture and maltreatment of prisoners. But, breaking with a practice of openness that had lasted for decades, it has classified as secret and refused to disclose the techniques of interrogation it is using on foreign detainees at U.S. prisons at Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan and Iraq. This is a matter of grave concern because the use of some of the methods that have been reported in the press is regarded by independent experts as well as some of the Pentagon's legal professionals as illegal. The administration has responded that its civilian lawyers have certified its methods as proper -- but it has refused to disclose, or even provide to Congress, the justifying opinions and memos.

    This week, thanks again to an independent press, we have begun to learn the deeply disturbing truth about the legal opinions that the Pentagon and the Justice Department seek to keep secret. According to copies leaked to several newspapers, they lay out a shocking and immoral set of justifications for torture. In a paper prepared last year under the direction of the Defense Department's chief counsel, and first disclosed by the Wall Street Journal, the president of the United States was declared empowered to disregard U.S. and international law and order the torture of foreign prisoners. Moreover, interrogators following the president's orders were declared immune from punishment. Torture itself was narrowly redefined, so that techniques that inflict pain and mental suffering could be deemed legal. All this was done as a prelude to the designation of 24 interrogation methods for foreign prisoners -- the same techniques, now in use, that President Bush says are humane but refuses to disclose.

    There is no justification, legal or moral, for the judgments made by Mr. Bush's political appointees at the Justice and Defense departments. Theirs is the logic of criminal regimes, of dictatorships around the world that sanction torture on grounds of "national security." For decades the U.S. government has waged diplomatic campaigns against such outlaw governments -- from the military juntas in Argentina and Chile to the current autocracies in Islamic countries such as Algeria and Uzbekistan -- that claim torture is justified when used to combat terrorism. The news that serving U.S. officials have officially endorsed principles once advanced by Augusto Pinochet brings shame on American democracy -- even if it is true, as the administration maintains, that its theories have not been put into practice. Even on paper, the administration's reasoning will provide a ready excuse for dictators, especially those allied with the Bush administration, to go on torturing and killing detainees.

    Perhaps the president's lawyers have no interest in the global impact of their policies -- but they should be concerned about the treatment of American servicemen and civilians in foreign countries. Before the Bush administration took office, the Army's interrogation procedures -- which were unclassified -- established this simple and sensible test: No technique should be used that, if used by an enemy on an American, would be regarded as a violation of U.S. or international law. Now, imagine that a hostile government were to force an American to take drugs or endure severe mental stress that fell just short of producing irreversible damage; or pain a little milder than that of "organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." What if the foreign interrogator of an American "knows that severe pain will result from his actions" but proceeds because causing such pain is not his main objective? What if a foreign leader were to decide that the torture of an American was needed to protect his country's security? Would Americans regard that as legal, or morally acceptable? According to the Bush administration, they should.
     
  11. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    NYTimes editorial...
    ________________

    The Roots of Abu Ghraib

    In response to the outrages at Abu Ghraib, the Bush administration has repeatedly assured Americans that the president and his top officials did not say or do anything that could possibly be seen as approving the abuse or outright torture of prisoners. But disturbing disclosures keep coming. This week it's a legal argument by government lawyers who said the president was not bound by laws or treaties prohibiting torture.

    Each new revelation makes it more clear that the inhumanity at Abu Ghraib grew out of a morally dubious culture of legal expediency and a disregard for normal behavior fostered at the top of this administration. It is part of the price the nation must pay for President Bush's decision to take the extraordinary mandate to fight terrorism that he was granted by a grieving nation after 9/11 and apply it without justification to Iraq.

    Since the Abu Ghraib scandal broke into public view, the administration has contended that a few sadistic guards acted on their own to commit the crimes we've all seen in pictures and videos. At times, the White House has denied that any senior official was aware of the situation, as it did with Red Cross reports documenting a pattern of prisoner abuse in Iraq. In response to a rising pile of documents proving otherwise, the administration has mounted a "Wizard of Oz" defense, urging Americans not to pay attention to inconvenient evidence.

    This week, The Wall Street Journal broke the story of a classified legal brief prepared for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in March 2003 after Guantánamo Bay interrogators complained that they were not getting enough information from terror suspects. The brief cynically suggested that because the president is protecting national security, any ban on torture, even an American law, could not be applied to "interrogation undertaken pursuant to his commander-in-chief authority." Neil A. Lewis and Eric Schmitt reported yesterday in The Times that the document had grown out of a January 2002 Justice Department memo explaining why the Geneva Conventions and American laws against torture did not apply to suspected terrorists.

    In the wake of that memo, the White House general counsel advised Mr. Bush that Al Qaeda and the Taliban should be considered outside the Geneva Conventions. But yesterday, Attorney General John Ashcroft assured the Senate Judiciary Committee that Mr. Bush had not ordered torture. These explanations might be more comforting if the administration's definition of what's legal was not so slippery, and if the Pentagon, the Justice Department and the White House were willing to release documents to back up their explanation. Mr. Rumsfeld is still withholding from the Senate his orders on interrogation techniques, among other things.

    The Pentagon has said that Mr. Rumsfeld's famous declaration that the Geneva Conventions did not apply in Afghanistan was not a sanction of illegal interrogations, and that everyone knew different rules applied in Iraq. But Mr. Rumsfeld, his top deputies and the highest-ranking generals could not explain to the Senate what the rules were, or even who was in charge of the prisons in Iraq. We do not know how high up in the chain of command the specific sanction for abusing prisoners was given, and we may never know, because the Army is investigating itself and the Pentagon is stonewalling the Senate Armed Services Committee. It may yet be necessary for Congress to form an investigative panel with subpoena powers to find the answers.

    What we have seen, topped by that legalistic treatise on torture, shows clearly that Mr. Bush set the tone for this dreadful situation by pasting a false "war on terrorism" label on the invasion of Iraq.
     
  12. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    Actually, if it comes out of the mouth of Al Franken or Michael Moore, I question it just as much as if it came from the maw of Hannity, Limbaugh, or O'Liely,
     
  13. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    It is "rented" not bought.
     
  14. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    In that case, the price is too high AND we are left with nothing after the lease period.
     
  15. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Did anyone *watch* the hearings with Ashcroft yesterday? I saw some longish excerpts, and I was as disturbed as I've ever been by a government official.

    I haven't seen this appear in the new stories (not that I've read them all), but at one point Ashcroft was talking about the US Torture Laws and actually said that (not actual quotation but close): "You have to understand that 'America' is not always well-defined. Does it include a consulate on foreign soil? Does it include all government owned buildings on foreign soil?" He was basically playing with the idea that you could torture people as long as they were not *technically* in "America."

    If people gave a certain president crap for asking the meaning of "is" (and he deserved crap for it), then could we agree it's arguably more important when an executive plays with the definition of our country to condone torture?
     
  16. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    very much agreed
     
  17. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    Excellent points. You'd think the government of an amazing country built on democracy and freedom would be looking for technicalities to *EXTEND* justice to more people.

    We attack, invade, overthrow and occupy a sovereign country under the auspices of bringing democracy, but we routinely deny justice because of a technicality? Even little kids are taught that cheaters never win.
     
  18. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.latimes.com/

    Prison Interrogators' Gloves Came Off
    Before Abu Ghraib

    By Richard A. Serrano
    Times Staff Writer

    June 9, 2004

    WASHINGTON — After American Taliban recruit John Walker Lindh was captured in Afghanistan, the office of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld instructed military intelligence officers to "take the gloves off" in interrogating him.

    The instructions from Rumsfeld's legal counsel in late 2001, contained in previously undisclosed government documents, are the earliest known evidence that the Bush administration was willing to test the limits of how far it could go legally to extract information from suspected terrorists.

    The Pentagon and Congress are now investigating the mistreatment of inmates at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in late 2003 and trying to determine whether higher-ups in the military chain of command had created a climate that fostered prisoner abuse.

    What happened to Lindh, who was stripped and humiliated by his captors, foreshadowed the type of abuse documented in photographs of American soldiers tormenting Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

    At the time, just weeks after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the U.S. was desperate to find terrorist leader Osama bin Laden. After Lindh asked for a lawyer rather than talk to interrogators, he was not granted one nor was he advised of his Miranda rights against self-incrimination. Instead, the Pentagon ordered intelligence officers to get tough with him.

    The documents, read to The Times by two sources critical of how the government handled the Lindh case, show that after an Army intelligence officer began to question Lindh, a Navy admiral told the intelligence officer that "the secretary of Defense's counsel has authorized him to 'take the gloves off' and ask whatever he wanted."

    Lindh was being questioned while he was propped up naked and tied to a stretcher in interrogation sessions that went on for days, according to court papers.

    In the early stages, his responses were cabled to Washington hourly, the new documents show.

    A Defense Department spokesperson said Tuesday evening that the Pentagon "refused to speculate on the exact intent of the statement" from Rumsfeld's office to the military authorities interrogating Lindh.

    "Department officials stress that all interrogation policies and procedures demand humane treatment of personnel in their custody," the spokesperson said. "The department is committed to searching further to ascertain the original source of the comment brought to their attention by The Times."

    Lindh, who pleaded guilty in return for a 20-year federal prison sentence for aiding the Taliban, was a young Northern California Islamic convert who joined the Taliban army before Sept. 11, attended a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan and was captured soon after U.S. troops invaded the country.

    While Lindh was being interrogated in Afghanistan and later aboard a ship, senior Bush administration officials were strategizing on how to handle other prisoners being rounded up in Afghanistan, with an eye toward flexibility in interrogating them.

    In a series of memos from late 2001 to early 2002, top legal officials in the administration identified the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a safe haven offshore that would shield the secret interrogation process from intervention by the U.S. judicial system.

    The memos show that top government lawyers believed the administration was not bound by the Geneva Convention governing treatment of prisoners because "Al Qaeda is merely a violent political movement or organization and not a nation-state" that had signed the international treaty.

    However, the memos also show that Secretary of State Colin L. Powell warned the White House that a tougher approach toward interrogation "will reverse over a century of U.S. policy and practices in supporting Geneva Conventions and undermine the protections of the law of war for our troops, both in this specific conflict and in general."

    The tenor of these administration memos on the handling of prisoners in the earliest stages of the U.S.-declared war on terrorism was similar to a legal "working paper" by administration lawyers in March 2003. It concluded that the president had the authority to allow any interrogation tactics that he thought would protect the American public, including torture, according to government documents. The Pentagon this week said that the paper was part of an internal administration debate and was not a policy that was carried out.

    In the Iraq war that began in March 2003, administration officials said that the military would abide by the Geneva Convention. But in January of this year, a dismayed U.S. military guard turned over photographs depicting physical abuse and humiliation of inmates at Abu Ghraib.

    Six Army prison guards are awaiting courts-martial in the Abu Ghraib scandal. A seventh has pleaded guilty.

    The Pentagon, although condemning the behavior, has blamed it on a handful of low-level soldiers violating Army regulations. But the Department of Defense and the Senate Armed Services Committee are investigating how high up in the chain of command responsibilities for the abuses lie.

    In the case of Lindh, U.S. intelligence officers first tried to interrogate him on Nov. 25, 2001, after he and other Taliban soldiers were captured by U.S. allies known as the Northern Alliance and taken to the town of Mazar-i-Sharif. There, CIA agent Johnny "Mike" Spann used an interrogation tactic of warning Lindh that he might die.

    According to a video aired days after Lindh's capture, Spann asked him, "You believe in what you're doing here that much, you're willing to be killed here?"

    Another CIA officer, identified as Dave Tyson, told Spann within Lindh's hearing that "he's got to decide if he wants to live or die, and die here. We're just going to leave him, and he's going to … sit in prison the rest of his … short life. It's his decision."

    Lindh, then 20, did not respond. Shortly after, an uprising broke out. Spann was killed — the first U.S. fatality of the war — and Lindh was shot in the leg.

    Lindh was recaptured, and over a series of interrogations — at a school at Mazar-i-Sharif, at Camp Rhino in Afghanistan and aboard a Navy ship — he was kept in harsh conditions, stripped and tied to a stretcher, and often held for long periods in a large metal container, the government and defense agreed during his legal battle.

    In court hearings and legal papers, his attorneys complained that he was deprived of sleep and food, that his leg wound was not treated, and that for 54 days he was neither allowed legal assistance nor told that his father had retained lawyers on his behalf in San Francisco.

    Lindh's lawyers declined to comment on the matter this week, noting that a provision of his 2002 plea agreement stated he would not bring up the conditions under which he was held overseas.

    The military, in contrast, has maintained in previous court documents that Lindh was treated well and that he was read his rights under the Miranda law against self-incrimination.

    But the new records raise new questions.

    According to the government documents, when Lindh was first under interrogation at the schoolhouse, authorities realized that as an American he was drawing the attention of the Defense and Justice departments. There was some initial discussion of whether Lindh, as an American, should be advised of his right against self-incrimination before military intelligence officers talked to him.

    One Army intelligence officer said in the documents that he had been advised that "instructions had come from higher headquarters" for interrogators to coordinate with military lawyers about Lindh.

    "After the first hour of interrogation, [the interrogator] gave the admiral in charge of Mazar-i-Sharif a summary of what the interrogators had collected up to that point," the documents say. "The admiral told him at that point that the secretary of Defense's counsel has authorized him to 'take the gloves off' and ask whatever he wanted."

    The Army intelligence officer responded that if a "criminal investigator" wanted to later question Lindh, "that was fine."

    But in the meantime, the officer said, he was "interested in tactical information. He was in the business of collecting [intelligence] information, not in the business of Mirandizing."

    The officer did ask to be faxed a Miranda form, according to the documents, "but he never got it. He never gave Lindh a Miranda warning."

    Rumsfeld's legal counsel is not named in the documents. The office was headed by William J. Haynes II.

    On Dec. 14, 2001, Haynes' deputy, Paul W. Cobb Jr., told Lindh's San Francisco lawyers that "our forces have provided him with appropriate medical attention and will continue to treat him humanely, consistent with the Geneva Convention protections for prisoners of war."

    But court documents suggest that Lindh was treated much as the prisoners later were at Abu Ghraib. Along with nudity and the sleep and food deprivation, Lindh was allegedly threatened with death. One soldier said he "was going to hang." Another "Special Forces soldier offered to shoot him."

    At other times, soldiers took photos and videos of themselves smiling next to the naked Lindh, another image eerily similar to the Abu Ghraib photos.

    Such actions appear to be in violation of the Geneva Convention, which requires that prisoners have adequate clothing, food and sleep and not be threatened or subjected to degrading treatment.

    As the interrogation of Lindh was going on, officials in Washington were privately working out details for handling other prisoners from Afghanistan.

    On Dec. 28, 2001, John Yoo, then deputy assistant attorney general, told Haynes at the Pentagon that Guantanamo Bay was a perfect place for detainees because it was not a part of the sovereign United States and therefore not subject to the federal courts. But, Yoo cautioned, "there remains some litigation risk that a district court might reach the opposite result."

    The holding of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay without charge or a court hearing has been challenged by several defense lawyers, and the U.S. Supreme Court is expected to rule this month on whether the government went too far.





    John Lindh is a U.S. citizen (not that it should matter). Bama are ready to call for the resignation (or arrest) of Rumsfeld now.
     
  19. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    The Rule of Law is not as important as the Attorney General's beliefs...
    ________________

    DURBIN: You have said that you're not claiming executive privilege; that's for the president to claim. But the law's very clear: you have two options when you say no to this committee: Either the executive claims privilege and refuses to disclose, or you cite a statutory provision whereby Congress has limited its constitutional right to information.

    So which is it, Mr. Attorney General? Is it executive privilege, or which statue are you claiming is going to shield you from making this disclosure of these memos at this point?

    ASHCROFT: . . . I couldn't agree more heartedly with you that the Constitution is controlling. . . .

    (CROSSTALK)

    DURBIN: I respect that. But under which standard are you denying this committee the memos, either executive privilege or a specific statutory authority created by Congress exempting your constitutional responsibility to disclose? Under which are you refusing to disclose these memos?

    ASHCROFT: I am refusing to disclose these memos because I believe it is essential to the operation of the executive branch that the president have the opportunity to get information from his attorney general that is confidential and that the responsibility to do that is a function of the executive branch and a necessity that is protected by the doctrine of the separation of powers in the Constitution.
    . . .

    DURBIN: Sir, Attorney General, with all due respect, your personal belief is not a law, and you are not citing a law and you are not claiming executive privilege. And, frankly, that is what contempt of Congress is all about.
     
  20. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Michael Froomkin, University of Miami Law Prof...
    _________________

    I have read a redacted copy of the first 56 pages of the Torture Memo (alternate source). The memo — or at least the approximately half of it we have — sets out a view as to how to make legal justifications for the torture of detainees unilaterally labeled by the government as “unlawful combatants”, including (but not limited to?) al Qaida and Taliban detainees in Guantanamo.

    Here are my initial comments on some of the main points, especially those regarding Presidential powers and international law. I’ve concentrated on those parts because those are the relevant issues I think I know the most about; in contrast, I say little here about the direct criminal law issues. I wrote this in a hurry, so please treat these as tentative remarks. I look forward to discussion with other readers, and will post amendments and corrections when they are brought to my attention.

    1. The memo begins by noting, accurately, that our international obligations include a commitment to refrain from actions that would be ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ under the Constitution. This acknowledgment does not, however, infuse much of what follows.

    2. The memo notes that Justice Department opined in a separate memo dated January 22, 2002, Re: Application of Treaties and Laws to al-Queda and Taliban Detainees, that customary international law “cannot bind the Executive Branch under the Constitution because it is not federal law” and in particular clear executive decisions would be “controlling” law that would trump customary international law. [Note: The Jan. 22 memo cited here seems related to the Gonzales memo of Jan 25, but to be a separate document — is a copy available anywhere?]

    In my opinion, the first part of this statement about customary international law is directly contrary to the Restatement (3rd) of Foreign Relations Law of the United States § 111(1) — although I suppose a reasonable person might conceivably disagree. The second part is simply weasel wording: Compliance with customary law is an international obligation of the US, but not always a domestic obligation. It’s agreed that Congress can constitutionally legislate in a way that would violate our international obligations, although as a matter of construction courts presume it has not done so unless the Congressional intent to violate international law is explicit. It’s not generally agreed the President can do this unilaterally, especially since the Supreme Court declared that “international law is part of our law” in The Paquete Habana (1900).

    3. As previously noted by the WSJ, the memo argues (accurately, in my opinion) that the Torture statute, 18 USC § 2340, applies only to conduct outside the US, then it argues (plausibly) that Guantanamo is inside the US for jurisdictional purposes, hence not within the zone covered by § 2340. As I noted previously, this analysis conflicts with the position the US government took regarding Guantanamo before the Supreme Court. (But I actually think the memo has it right, and the US litigation posture wrong.) The memo argues that the two positions can be reconciled, which again is technically correct—they can be read that way—but I think it would be wrong to read them that way, and it’s certainly not compelled.

    4. Then there’s a long discussion of what is or isn’t torture, with much fine parsing of the torturer’s intentions, all of which seems designed to bend over backwards to suggest that hurting people a whole lot to the point of damage is fine if you do it with the right spirit. I cannot bear to summarize all this; it is too painful. I have never seen a better demonstration of the first part of the saying that “the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life,” an ironic property given the identity of the lead author.

    5. The discussion of Presidential powers begins (page 20) with the observation that in the exercise of the commander-in-chief function, and in particular in the conduct of operations against hostile forces, the President enjoys “complete discretion”. That the President’s powers are at their greatest in these circumstances cannot be disputed. But while the discretion is indeed very great, I do not see how it could possibly be read to include the authority to commit war crimes, even pre-Nuremburg. And today it clearly cannot include that authority, at least without explicit Congressional authorization. Thus, the entire discussion of Presidential power is based on a premise so false that any student who has taken introductory International Law should be able to recognize its error. And as any logician will tell you, when you begin with an erroneous premise, you are in trouble.

    6. A similar error infuses the paper’s discussion of the application of the Torture statute, 18 USC § 2340, to actions on the field of battle or activities ancillary to battle. On p. 21 the paper states that the President’s military authority to run a campaign means that the Torture statute “must be construed as inapplicable to interrogations undertaken pursuant to his Commander-in-Chief authority” (i.e. all military interrogations in wartime) because — I am not making this up, they are — “Congress lacks the authority to under Article I to set the terms and conditions under which the President may exercise his authority as Commander-in-Chief to control the conduct of operations during a war.” In short, according to this memo, on the field of battle the President’s authority is absolute (recall that the English commander-in-chief was an official who reported to George III). “Congress may no more regulate the President’s authority … to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield.”

    This is clearly wrong on the Constitutional level, and quite probably a bad analogy. It is clearly wrong to suggest that Congress exceeds its authority when it implements an international treaty obligation against torture, even if this has the result of reducing otherwise extant Presidential power. This is because under Article VI of the Constitution, international treaties “shall be the supreme Law of the Land”. We’ve known that this means what it says since at least Missouri v. Holland, if not long long before.

    It is generally agreed — and I certainly believe — that Congress has no role in dictating battlefield troop movements, or the choice of field commanders (as opposed to its constitutional role in approving promotions). Conversely, under the Constitution, if not always in real life, Congress does get to choose who we attack. And Congress does have a say in the methods by which we wage war, both via the spending power and via its constitutionally prescribed role in setting the rules of military justice. If Congress passes a law that says it’s a criminal act for a soldier to thumb his nose at a prisoner, or carry a type of weapon, that’s a valid law, and the Commander in Chief authority cannot trump it. To argue otherwise is to say that were Congress to decide that we should not make a neutron bomb, as it did, the President could nonetheless decide to make one, and use it on the battlefield. Similarly, were Congress to pass a law that said nuclear weapons could only be used if certain conditions had been met, under the Constitution the President would not have the authority to ignore that limitation.

    But that’s all beside the point. Even if we were to accept that the President has unlimited authority over the battlefield, it in no way follows that this authority extends to Guantanamo, which is far removed from it. The memo treats this as given. It is anything but given.

    Page 23 really goes off the rails, making an argument popular with the Federalist Society, but not taken seriously by mainstream academics, for unlimited, uncontainable, Presidential power. The so-called “unitary executive” argument is set out most clearly in a Harvard Law Review article, Steven G. Calabresi & Kevin H. Rhodes, The Structural Constitution: Unitary Executive, Plural Judiciary, 105 Harv. L. Rev. 1155 (1992). My explanation as to why this article is profoundly wrong and dangerous can be found at A. Michael Froomkin, The Imperial Presidency’s New Vestments, 88 Nw. L. Rev. 1346 (1994), which in turn sparked separate and not entirely consistent answers from each of the two authors of the Structural Constitution article. My rebuttal article Still Naked After All These Words, 88 Nw. L. Rev. 1420 (1994) is also online.

    On pages 22-23 the Walker Working Group Report sets out a view of an unlimited Presidential power to do anything he wants with “enemy combatants”. The bill of rights is nowhere mentioned. There is no principle suggested which limits this purported authority to non-citizens, or to the battlefield. Under this reasoning, it would be perfectly proper to grab any one of us and torture us if the President determined that the war effort required it. I cannot exaggerate how pernicious this argument is, and how incompatible it is with a free society. The Constitution does not make the President a King. This memo does.

    7. The draft returns to the theme of cruel and unusual punishment around page 35, grudgingly noting that although Gitmo detainees have no constitutional rights since they are foreigners, the US nonetheless can’t subject to them to acts that would be ‘cruel and unusual’ due to our obligations under the Convention Against Torture. Having said that, the memo notes that what is cruel and unusual is not a hard and fast rule (I’d add “in all cases”, since I think some things are per se cruel and unusual), and what is forbidden may depend on the circumstances. Having constructed this loophole — which to the extent it exists is not designed to allow coercive questioning — the memo then tries to squeeze through it, noting in its Eight Amendment analysis that the “government interest here is of the highest magnitude” (p. 38) and hence things that might be excessive force in other circumstances might not be here. But it doesn’t come to any specific conclusions about what’s in and what’s out.

    8. There’s an extensive discussion of various criminal and civil statutes that might land a torturer in hot water, but I’m going to skip over those. Similarly, I’m not going to discuss the UCMJ provisions cited on pages 47-51, except to note that the UCMJ is a congressional enactment, pursuant to its constitutional powers. Indeed, as the memo notes, “even in war limits to the use of force exist” and these are enforced by the military justice system.

    The memo is ambiguous as to whether it argues that the UCMJ is an infringement of the President’s supposed plenary power of the military. Failing to make this argument would expose the flaws in its own reasoning that the President is subject to no legal constraint in his prosecution of a war and in any ancillary activities relating to it. On the other hand, arguing the UCMJ is invalid is obviously nuts. Here’s what the memo says on the subject of the President unilaterally overruling the UCMJ (p. 53):

    “Legal doctrines could render specific conduct, otherwise criminal not unlawful.

    See discussion of Commander-in-Chief Authority, supra.

    Oddly, there’s no mention of the Constitutionally proper means by which a President could in fact overrule the UCMJ — by exercising the Pardon power. (Perhaps it’s not so odd — unitary executive partisans don’t want to admit that the Pardon power is how the President balances Congress’s lawmaking power; they’d rather have the President in effect legislate.)

    9. The final section of the 56 pages in the version posted online (there’s obviously lots of the memo left to be found), discusses the very reasonable rules in fact used heretofore by the US armed forces. Unlike the authors of this memo, the folks on the sharp end eschew physical torture, preferring interrogation techniques that sound a lot like what the cops do down at the station.

    10. This memo is labeled “draft”. Even so, if the second half is like the first, then everyone who wrote or signed it strikes me as morally unfit to serve the United States.

    If anyone in the higher levels of government acted in reliance on this advice, those persons should be impeached. If they authorized torture, it may be that they have committed, and should be tried for, war crimes. And, as we learned at Nuremberg, “I was just following orders” is NOT (and should not be) a defense.
     

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