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Sanctioned Torture and Our Constitution

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rimrocker, Jun 7, 2004.

  1. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Josh Marshall weighs in...
    _______________

    The Wall Street Journal has an extraordinary article in today's edition. The Journal has taken to making an article a day open to the public for bloggers and others to link to. This wasn't the one they chose today; but I hope they'll make an exception and make this one available too.

    The article describes a confidential Pentagon report providing legal rationales and interpretations by which US personnel could use torture and methods of near-torture in contravention of various international treaties and US laws. The bulk of the arguments rest on arguments of 'necessity' and the powers of the president as commander-in-chief. They also go into some depth about how people acting at the president's order could avoid prosecution for demonstrably criminal acts.

    The article is well worth reading for this alone.

    But that whole discussion is different in kind from one passage in the report. I quote from the piece ...

    To protect subordinates should they be charged with torture, the memo advised that Mr. Bush issue a "presidential directive or other writing" that could serve as evidence, since authority to set aside the laws is "inherent in the president."

    So the right to set aside law is "inherent in the president". That claim alone should stop everyone in their tracks and prompt a serious consideration of the safety of the American republic under this president. It is the very definition of a constitutional monarchy, let alone a constitutional republic, that the law is superior to the executive, not the other way around. This is the essence of what the rule of law means -- a government of laws, not men, and all that.

    Now, we know that presidents sometimes break laws and they frequently bend them, if only in cases where the laws don't seem to anticipate a situation the president finds himself confronting. There is even an argument that the president can refuse to enforce laws he deems unconstitutional.

    But there is no power inherent in the president simply to set aside the law. Richard Nixon famously argued that "when the president does it that means that it is not illegal." But the constitutional rulings emerging out of Watergate said otherwise. And history has been equally unkind to his claim.

    Now, there are some possible exceptions -- ones of an extra-constitutional nature. If memory serves, Thomas Jefferson -- when he was later thinking over the implications of his arguably unconstitutional Louisiana Purchase (and again this is from memory -- so perhaps someone can check for me) -- argued that the president might find himself in a position in which he might have the right or even the duty to disregard the law or some stricture of the constitution in the higher interests of the Republic.

    Jefferson's argument, however, wasn't that the president had the prerogative to set aside the law. It was that the president might find himself in a position of extremity in which there was simply no time to canvass the people or a situation in which there was no practicable way to bring the relevant information before them. In such a case the president might have an extra-constitutional right (if there can be such a thing) or even an obligation to act in what he understands to be the best interests of the Republic.

    The clearest instance of this would be a case where the president faced a choice between letting the Republic be destroyed or violating one of its laws.

    But that wasn't the end of his point. Having taken such a step, it would then be the obligation of the president to throw himself on the mercy of the public, letting them know the full scope of the facts and circumstances he had faced and leave it to them -- or rather their representatives or the courts -- to impeach him or indict those who had taken it upon themselves to act outside the law.

    As I recall Jefferson's argument there was never any thought that the president had the power to prevent future prosecutions of himself or those acting at his behest. Indeed, such a follow-on claim would explode whatever sense there is in Jefferson's argument.

    If you see the logic of Jefferson's argument it is not that the president is above the law or that he can set aside laws, it is that the president may have a moral authority or obligation to break the law in the interests of the Republic itself -- subject to submitting himself for punishment for breaking its laws, even in its own defense. Jefferson's argument was very much one of executive self-sacrifice rather than prerogative.

    Somehow I don't think that's what this White House has in mind.

    -- Josh Marshall
     
  2. bamaslammer

    bamaslammer Member

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    If we're not torturing American citizens or uniformed enemy military personnel, torture away if it is neccessary to get needed intel.

    We've seen what the Islamofacists do to their prisoners (Nick Berg, etc.) The hypothetical question I'd like to pose to all you hand-wringing, care-more-for-the-rights-of-terrorists than the safety of your country crowd is this. We capture an Arab who is not a citizen with suspected knowledge of a dirty bomb plot in the US. We know they have a bomb and know they are going to use it. But we don't know where. Would you have a problem with us torturing his ass to find out or would you rather the city go up in a funeral pyre of "principle?" You make the call and there are no "nuanced" answers here, folks. Just a yes or a no will suffice.
     
  3. FranchiseBlade

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    I don't know any that care more for terrorists than care about the safety of our country. It does appear there are some more worried about the slight chance that their safety will be harmed than they do about the constitution of the United States of America.

    I will answer your question though. Yes I would have a problem with torturing the Arab non-citizen. The so called dirty bomb is a scare tactic. The blast would be the dangerous part, I've heard expert after expert say that the dirty part would not add to the casualties. It would contaminate an area, but as long as it was evacuated then there shouldn't be any additional casualties from a home made dirty bomb.

    I thought the thing that made the fathers of our nation such heroes is that they were willing to die for freedom and justice. I thought that was what America is about. Upholding our constitution, freedom, values, integrity, and honor, rank top on my list. Even if the bomb was in my apartment I wouldn't oppose selling out our principles. I'm willing to die for freedom and justice. I think that comes first. After all who wants to live in our country if we end up being a tortuous government where the law applies to the people but not its leaders.
     
  4. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    So many are so willing to sell the honor and ideals of our country to buy a little more security. Well, I'll tell you it's a fool's purchase. You're buying a false security and the price is too high.
     
  5. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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  6. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    rule of law, people....not rule of man. geez, at least be consistent...because there was so much pissing and moaning about the rule of law being trampled on during the Clinton impeachment, which I completely agreed with. but just because i've supported bush doesn't mean that's more important than the rule of law.
     
  7. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    Bravo! It's exactly what the terrorists want!
     
  8. wouldabeen23

    wouldabeen23 Member

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    Genralissimo El Busho!!
     
  9. Rashmon

    Rashmon Member

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    "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

    Benjamin Franklin
     
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Why does Benjamin Franklin hate America?
     
  11. bamaslammer

    bamaslammer Member

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    We're not talking about AMERICANS giving up liberty, but terrorists who have nothing but our destruction in their minds. If you ask me, Jose Padilla, locked up for a dirty bomb plot, should receive a trial by jury and be formally charged by the govt. because he is an AMERICAN citizen. Now if he was Joe Al-Muhammed Terrorist from wherever, he doesn't deserve those rights afforded to Americans. So FB, "principle" is more important than your very life? The Constitutional rights and protections are not and should not be afforded to terrorists. This handwringing by folks here is hilarious, but I'm just glad you pansies are not in charge.
     
  12. real_egal

    real_egal Member

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    Only experience, especially bad experience will teach you valuable lessons. To be honest, I am really surprised to see America become like this now. People tend to label others with all those severe accusations like "unpatriotic". People are willing to give up privacy and liberty to gain security, and people are claiming that rules are not applied when you deal with "bad guys". If you never lived in a "socialism" country, you would never understand what "a strong leadership" means. What does "using all means to fight against bad guys and protect good guys" really means. GB claims he's a Christian, but I guess he forgot one thing, that we are all sinners, that's why rule of man would never work, and it's proved to fail in many countries, with people's blood. America is indeed blessed and thanks to its consitution. The disadvantage of that is, some people won't realize and appreciate certain things untill they lose them. What if the "bad guys" the government or your strong leader told you ended up being tortured and dying, but in fact, history tells you later on that they are not bad guys? It could be you and me. Double standard or uncontrolled power was, is, and will be never ever working. What if you are held as a suspicious tater for some crime? Are you willing to open your arms and claim:"Please torture me, for the sake of American People!"?

    In my experience, the most dangerous and suspicious actions are those in the name of people, and beating down all the opposite opinions. Not to discourage anyone, mass opinion is normally wrong. "Mein Kampf" is a good book to give us some very valuable lessons in mass opinion.
     
  13. FranchiseBlade

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    Yes principle is more important than my very life. I could say that my very life isn't very important without principle.

    I'm not talking about just rights to terrorists. I'm talking about the claim that the President is above the law, or the idea that torture is ok.
     
  14. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    Bama, do you believe that an American life is worth more than the life of a citizen of another country?
     
  15. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    This is so much not what this thread is about. We are talking about Americans giving up Liberty and a host of other things that made this country great. The President of the United States is claiming that he and he alone can decide which laws he has to follow. I'm amazed that a self-proclaimed Libertarian is not absolutely freaked by this. That claim is antithetical to all this country stands for.

    Torture and terror are not really the issue here bama... they are merely the means to the ends of consolidating executive power. I pity you for not being able to see that. And no, this is not a typical bash Bush thread... this goes to the heart of our Republic and the story broke in the Wall Street Journal of all places.

    Al Franken once joked that Bush is our worst leader since King George. That joke is not so funny after the last few weeks and especially after reading this story.
     
  16. bamaslammer

    bamaslammer Member

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    Guess this is all headed under the column of "Bush- the Nazi." This has nothing to do with "consolidating executive power" and never has. This is proof you on the left have departed the world of reality if you really believe that Bush is attempting some kind of coup de tat!
     
  17. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Keep whistling bama. I hope you are right but know you are wrong.
     
  18. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Yet another memo...
    _____________

    Memo Offered Justification for Use of Torture
    Justice Dept. Gave Advice in 2002

    By Dana Priest and R. Jeffrey Smith
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Tuesday, June 8, 2004; Page A01


    In August 2002, the Justice Department advised the White House that torturing al Qaeda terrorists in captivity abroad "may be justified," and that international laws against torture "may be unconstitutional if applied to interrogations" conducted in President Bush's war on terrorism, according to a newly obtained memo.

    If a government employee were to torture a suspect in captivity, "he would be doing so in order to prevent further attacks on the United States by the Al Qaeda terrorist network," said the memo, from the Justice Department's office of legal counsel, written in response to a CIA request for legal guidance. It added that arguments centering on "necessity and self-defense could provide justifications that would eliminate any criminal liability" later.

    The memo seems to counter the pre-Sept. 11, 2001, assumption that U.S. government personnel would never be permitted to torture captives. It was offered after the CIA began detaining and interrogating suspected al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the wake of the attacks, according to government officials familiar with the document.

    The legal reasoning in the 2002 memo, which covered treatment of al Qaeda detainees in CIA custody, was later used in a March 2003 report by Pentagon lawyers assessing interrogation rules governing the Defense Department's detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. At that time, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld had asked the lawyers to examine the logistical, policy and legal issues associated with interrogation techniques.

    Bush administration officials say flatly that, despite the discussion of legal issues in the two memos, it has abided by international conventions barring torture, and that detainees at Guantanamo and elsewhere have been treated humanely, except in the cases of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq for which seven military police soldiers have been charged.

    Still, the 2002 and 2003 memos reflect the Bush administration's desire to explore the limits on how far it could legally go in aggressively interrogating foreigners suspected of terrorism or of having information that could thwart future attacks.

    In the 2002 memo, written for the CIA and addressed to White House Counsel Alberto R. Gonzales, the Justice Department defined torture in a much narrower way, for example, than does the U.S. Army, which has historically carried out most wartime interrogations.

    In the Justice Department's view -- contained in a 50-page document signed by Assistant Attorney General Jay S. Bybee and obtained by The Washington Post -- inflicting moderate or fleeting pain does not necessarily constitute torture. Torture, the memo says, "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death."

    By contrast, the Army's Field Manual 34-52, titled "Intelligence Interrogations," sets more restrictive rules. For example, the Army prohibits pain induced by chemicals or bondage; forcing an individual to stand, sit or kneel in abnormal positions for prolonged periods of time; and food deprivation. Under mental torture, the Army prohibits mock executions, sleep deprivation and chemically induced psychosis.

    Human rights groups expressed dismay at the Justice Department's legal reasoning yesterday.

    "It is by leaps and bounds the worst thing I've seen since this whole Abu Ghraib scandal broke," said Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch. "It appears that what they were contemplating was the commission of war crimes and looking for ways to avoid legal accountability. The effect is to throw out years of military doctrine and standards on interrogations."

    But a spokesman for the White House counsel's office said, "The president directed the military to treat al Qaeda and Taliban humanely and consistent with the Geneva Conventions."

    Mark Corallo, the Justice Department's chief spokesman, said "the department does not comment on specific legal advice it has provided confidentially within the executive branch." But he added: "It is the policy of the United States to comply with all U.S. laws in the treatment of detainees -- including the Constitution, federal statutes and treaties." The CIA declined to comment.

    The Justice Department's interpretation for the CIA sought to provide guidance on what sorts of aggressive treatments might not fall within the legal definition of torture.

    The 2002 memo, for example, included the interpretation that "it is difficult to take a specific act out of context and conclude that the act in isolation would constitute torture." The memo named seven techniques that courts have considered torture, including severe beatings with truncheons and clubs, threats of imminent death, burning with cigarettes, electric shocks to genitalia, rape or sexual assault, and forcing a prisoner to watch the torture of another person.

    "While we cannot say with certainty that acts falling short of these seven would not constitute torture," the memo advised, ". . . we believe that interrogation techniques would have to be similar to these in their extreme nature and in the type of harm caused to violate law."

    "For purely mental pain or suffering to amount to torture," the memo said, "it must result in significant psychological harm of significant duration, e.g., lasting for months or even years." Examples include the development of mental disorders, drug-induced dementia, "post traumatic stress disorder which can last months or even years, or even chronic depression."

    Of mental torture, however, an interrogator could show he acted in good faith by "taking such steps as surveying professional literature, consulting with experts or reviewing evidence gained in past experience" to show he or she did not intend to cause severe mental pain and that the conduct, therefore, "would not amount to the acts prohibited by the statute."

    In 2003, the Defense Department conducted its own review of the limits that govern torture, in consultation with experts at the Justice Department and other agencies. The aim of the March 6, 2003, review, conducted by a working group that included representatives of the military services, the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the intelligence community, was to provide a legal basis for what the group's report called "exceptional interrogations."

    Much of the reasoning in the group's report and in the Justice Department's 2002 memo overlap. The documents, which address treatment of al Qaeda and Taliban detainees, were not written to apply to detainees held in Iraq.

    In a draft of the working group's report, for example, Pentagon lawyers approvingly cited the Justice Department's 2002 position that domestic and international laws prohibiting torture could be trumped by the president's wartime authority and any directives he issued.

    At the time, the Justice Department's legal analysis, however, shocked some of the military lawyers who were involved in crafting the new guidelines, said senior defense officials and military lawyers.

    "Every flag JAG lodged complaints," said one senior Pentagon official involved in the process, referring to the judge advocate generals who are military lawyers of each service.

    "It's really unprecedented. For almost 30 years we've taught the Geneva Convention one way," said a senior military attorney. "Once you start telling people it's okay to break the law, there's no telling where they might stop."

    A U.S. law enacted in 1994 bars torture by U.S. military personnel anywhere in the world. But the Pentagon group's report, prepared under the supervision of General Counsel William J. Haynes II, said that "in order to respect the President's inherent constitutional authority to manage a military campaign . . . [the prohibition against torture] must be construed as inapplicable to interrogations undertaken pursuant to his Commander-in-Chief authority."

    The Pentagon group's report, divulged yesterday by the Wall Street Journal and obtained by The Post, said further that the 1994 law barring torture "does not apply to the conduct of U.S. personnel" at Guantanamo Bay.

    It also said the anti-torture law did apply to U.S. military interrogations that occurred outside U.S. "maritime and territorial jurisdiction," such as in Iraq or Afghanistan. But it said both Congress and the Justice Department would have difficulty enforcing the law if U.S. military personnel could be shown to be acting as a result of presidential orders.

    The report then parsed at length the definition of torture under domestic and international law, with an eye toward guiding military personnel about legal defenses.

    The Pentagon report uses language very similar to that in the 2002 Justice Department memo written in response to the CIA's request: "If a government defendant were to harm an enemy combatant during an interrogation in a manner that might arguably violate criminal prohibition, he would be doing so in order to prevent further attacks on the United States by the al Qaeda terrorist network," the draft states. "In that case, DOJ [Department of Justice] believes that he could argue that the executive branch's constitutional authority to protect the nation from attack justified his actions."

    The draft goes on to assert that a soldier's claim that he was following "superior orders" would be available for those engaged in "exceptional interrogations except where the conduct goes so far as to be patently unlawful." It asserts, as does the Justice view expressed for the CIA, that the mere infliction of pain and suffering is not unlawful; the pain or suffering must be severe.

    A Defense Department spokesman said last night that the March 2003 memo represented "a scholarly effort to define the perimeters of the law" but added: "What is legal and what is put into practice is a different story." Pentagon officials said the group examined at least 35 interrogation techniques, and Rumsfeld later approved using 24 of them in a classified directive on April 16, 2003, that governed all activities at Guantanamo Bay. The Pentagon has refused to make public the 24 interrogation procedures.
     
  19. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    I disagree. If you're on U.S. soil, you deserve a fair and speedy trial. Period. Justice shouldn't have loopholes.
     
  20. real_egal

    real_egal Member

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    I am not sure it's your inability or unwillingness to comprehend. It does not matter what Bush's intention or motive is, what really matters is the result. Uncontested and uncontrolled power is just wrong. It's what caused that Sadam was voted by 99.9% of the votes. And lots of us believe it would be bad for US as well, even if Bush is an excellent man (but no one is righteous), and he wants to lead American people to the promise land so badly.
     

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