Same-sex marriage approved by the state of New York.

who's changing the subject? look i don't want to go round and round on this because i don't care really it just irks me when people pull out the, "look what blacks had to go through" card and these issues are no where near on the same level.

thus analogy fail

 

i mean back to YOUR original analogy. blacks couldn't go to the same schools, were held from jobs, but yeah, not being able to marry interracially was high up on the list of things needed to be changed.

 

I got pictures! That shows the differences. :grin::grin:

As an Analogy can I say the Gay situation is like the Jewish situation in Nazi Germany . . . I mean .. it is just an analogy, right?

Rocket River
I know PGab . . I am not helping but . . . .
*grin*

 

exactly, its just an analogy

 

And again you suggest that only two identical things can be compared under the umbrella of analogy. If the two things are the same, they don't even qualify for comparison under the term.

How is it possible that you still haven't the vaguest understanding of the concept of analogies?

The analogy here doesn't fail; you do. At English 101.

And you fail again by bringing up gay Uncle Toms. The use of a total non-sequitur makes for an F also in Debate 101.

You're a generally good poster but this is not one of your finer moments.

 

Oh, you mean it's not exactly the same to be black in America as it is to be gay? What a revelation! Thanks for bringing that important insight into the conversation. Not.

Analogies, once again, are not the comparison of two identical things; they are the comparison of unlike things that have some thing in common.

Yes, the black experience has been very different than the gay one (DUH.). The similarity is that they are both groups that have been denied rights (DOUBLE DUH.).

The real mystery here is not your failure to understand what an analogy is though (though that really is amazing); it is how bent out of shape you get whenever the words "black" and "gay" are used in the same paragraph. What is up with that?

 

no that's not the similarity. the lack of civil rights dominated the black experience in this country.

gay marriage is a fringe issue.

 

Man, you're really bad at this. No, that is not "just an analogy." In fact, it is not an analogy at all. An analogy would not involve saying one situation is like the other; it would employ the similarities in clearly different situations to make a point.

Saying gays in America are "like" or "the same" as Jews in Nazi Germany is not an analogy. It is simply a statement, which is obviously not true. The analogy version would go something like this: "Though their experiences and the scale of those experiences were clearly different, there are similarities between the two groups as they were both victims of discrimination."

How did you guys get through high school English?

 

oh wow, batman won't even back down from the analogy of nazi germany. i think that proves my point.

 

Holy man. So now you're outing yourself as someone that just doesn't think discrimination or a lack of civil rights is a big deal unless it's happening to a group of people you belong to.

Gay marriage is a fringe issue TO YOU because you apparently don't care about any group to which you do not belong. There were whites that felt that way about black civil rights. (That, friend, is another in a series of tutorials on the concept of "analogy." I don't expect you to get it.)

The extent of the discrimination against blacks in this country is without equal. But you can damn well bet that being gay (and the issues that surround that) is every bit as central to a gay person as being black is to a black one.

Further, we live in an age when discrimination against blacks is against the law. That is not the case for gays. That fight is going on now. It has not been won, as civil rights for blacks has, it is happening now. Which side are you on?

 

I think somebody has stolen your account. You've never been anywhere close to as daft on anything as you are on this. If you can't admit you're wrong and move on, I will move on. It's a waste of time debating a brick wall.

 

someone can't agree that making any kind of reference to nazi germany is not simply making an analogy but being offensive calling me daft?

 

To put it a bit differently, when I returned to the D&D after something like a 9 month self-imposed absence, I said to myself that I will always walk away when I'm about to call somebody an idiot.

This is me walking away.

 

Yes. Bye for now.

 

Some things that were the same.

Gays - denied equal rights.

Gays - beaten to death because they were gay

Gays - slurred

Gays - discriminated against in job promotion and hiring

Gays - seen as less than what was considered normal.

Some things that were different

Gays - were never slaves.

Gays - weren't brought to the US from their homeland.

Gays - weren't denied the ability to read and write by law.

Gays - weren't legally separated from their families.

The bottom line is that nobody is saying the experiences were the same. There are many similarities. Both are matters of civil rights, discrimination(both by law and in the dominant culture), so there are analogies that can be made.

I don't understand why it bothers some people.

 

20% of gays voted for bush in 2004

republicans couldn't get 20% of the black vote right now in their wildest dreams


edit: hell i used bush because he ran against gay marriage, mccain was against it and he got 27%. the point isn't there are gay uncle toms, the point is its a fringe issue.

 

Sorry, one more thing before I go, though it is a change of subject in a way and I hope will be in no way confrontational. I want to explain my feelings about this analogy, how far it goes back in my psyche, and why it is so personal to me.

I've probably posted this before but I'm a white guy (a Jewish atheist actually) and I went to a magnet school as a kid that promoted understanding across cultures through busing. About half the kids in my class were black and nearly all of my best friends were. And together we learned about slavery and all the wrongs that were done to blacks, to the group that included my best friends, and that at one point that was all believed by society to be okay. My 7 or 8 year old mind went immediately to the question: What are we doing NOW as a society that later generations will look back at in horror? What else is like this, in ANY way, so that I can oppose it.

I asked myself that question for many years it took me many years to arrive at an answer. First, I thought well it's our treatment of animals. And in my early 20s I became vegan and tried to spread the word about injustices toward animals. Over 20 years later I am still vegan, but I recognized in the interim that there was a grave injustice being perpetrated toward human beings in our country that future generations would look back on in shame: the plight of the GLBT community and it's struggle to be treated equally under the law.

I make the analogy because it was learning when I was a child about the grievous mistreatment of blacks that sent me looking for today's important civil rights cause.

You made light of gay rights in a prior post calling it a "fringe" issue. Until this year, gays were not allowed to visit their life partners in the hospital and they were not allowed to serve in the military without hiding who they fundamentally were. They are still not protected from discrimination in employment, housing or adoption. In most states in the union, someone can be fired, denied housing and denied the ability to adopt a child simply because they are gay. This is the current state of the law and how could that not make a gay person feel like less than equal in this country? To feel like less than a whole person?

And how could a member of a group that had been so badly mistreated (even lynched, a thing that gays have also suffered throughout history though in lower numbers than blacks) be so insensitive when discrimination against another group or class of people makes them, by definition, unequal under the law?

Your position here, pgabs, honestly baffles me more than any other single thing in our contemporary politics. The infighting -- or, more to the point, the lack of empathy -- between minorities that have not been treated as equal under the law (whether blacks, Jews, Asians, Latinos or gays), just blows my freaking mind.

 

See!! these compare to Jews in Nazi Germany as well!
I guess my analogy stands as well. . . . correct?

Rocket River

 

i think its screwed up that gays couldn't visit their life partners in hospitals legally. i have my doubts that most hospitals would stick steadfastly to that rule but it is screwed up that its the law.

but here's the difference and this is why i call them fringe issues and i believe my stats on how gays vote backs that up. like i said, i doubt that most doctors are whomever makes that decision is going to stick to that rule as someone is dying. and the difference between then and now is that those rules were put in place against blacks because people wanted to discriminate against blacks. they wanted to hold the entire race of blacks down.
you think people really care if a gay person is trying to visit their life partner in a hospital. these are just legal issues that need to be straightened out going forward. these laws are more behind of what people think right now.