S.D. Abortion Bill Takes Aim at 'Roe' & blog posts Abortion Manual as response

I don't think you can do it that way. We are a part of everything else. Life is life. There is no separation, and the idea that there is causes these problems. If everything else is destroyed we are too. It's all or nothing.

 

Careful you just hit a nail right on the head...

The value of human life is the issue.

Especially the value relative to other living organisms.

Everyone screams over hard core racism (and rightfully so), yet it is simply the held view that one race of humans is less valued than another. One is deficient or devalued- the less-than human attitude.

Are all humans=value?
Are humans=turkeys?

Value is a word of identification. If you offered me a fake diamond that weighed 3 carats and told me it was worth a real diamond of high quality of the same weight would I pay $10,000.00 for the fake? Nope.

You offer me 10 acres of land in a Texas swamp that floods regularly for the price of what 10 acres of land on a beach in Maui sells for and I laugh at you.

Why because I can tell the difference in Texas swamp and Beachfront property in Hawaii.

We just can't seem to tell the difference in turkeys, bugs, chimps and humans.

We have out educated ourselves.

We should all have the deepest possible reverance for human life born and unborn; while it is living it is human.

 

All of this discussion of "semantics" leaves out one crucial difference usually overlooked by "pro-life" advocates, and that is the complete double standard regarding the right to privacy of a woman, and that of a man. SM would say to hunt the women down who dared to have an abortion, regardless of whether it was in the first trimester or the circumstances that drove the woman to make her decision, were the procedure to take place later. To quote SM:

"We will punish the ones we can catch and the ones we can't will get away with it. I redirect you to my example of laws against murder.

As long as there are people who want to have other people killed, others will step up to the plate to provide that service. This has been true for thousands of years and isn't likely to change soon. In my home town it happened famously and the guy has continued to avoid prosecution despite the assassin giving him up. That does not mean that we don't make murder for hire illegal."


SM is eager to arrest and try both the woman and the doctor for murder if an abortion occurs for almost any reason.

What about the man? The "father?" Why isn't StupidMoniker advocating the forced sterilization of the man involved, and his incarceration for his complicity in this "murder?" I find the hypocrisy bandied about around here appalling. All of you men are eager to force upon a woman how to use her own body, the ultimate right to privacy, yet you say little or nothing about the responsibility of the man, and the punishment he should suffer for this "murder."

If the man who was the other partner in causing the pregnancy faced sterilization and trial as an accessory to "murder" if an abortion occurred, in my opinion, we would see a dramatically different posture from those most eager to tell a woman what she must do with her own body... men. And I'll add that it is often the man involved who is first to bring up abortion as an answer to this "problem." Those who don't believe that this is true haven't had much experience in the "real world," out there. Why aren't they also on trial, in that case, for incitement to commit "murder?"



Keep D&D Civil.

 

We can agree on a lot things here, but I have to make two points:

Why is it that so many of the folks (I'm speaking in general, not here in this thread) who claim to value life and are willing to do just about anything to make their point about abortion so quick to turn their backs on the child once it is born? I've got a friend (Catholic) who has a kid... severe CP, diagnosed in the womb. Lots of her friends encouraged her to have the child because it is life and God's will. The kid was in the hospital the first 18 months of his life... she had several times after birth where she and her husband could have let the child go, but again, they gave in to God's will (and peer pressure from friends and family). Now that the kid is 9, can't walk, can't go the bathroom by himself, can't talk except by poking electronic symbols with a stick he holds in his mouth, and is not expected to live past 15, not one damn one of her "friends" who encouraged the birth has ever, EVER offered to help out. The "supportive" family can't deal and hardly ever visits. My wife and I are the only ones who will babysit to give the parents a brief reprieve. They also have a healthy younger son who they can't pay as much attention to because of the demands of the other brother.

The kid himself is increasingly bitter because he's starting to realize how different he is and that he will probably never have friends other than his immediate family. This is exacerbated by the younger brother's activities.

The husband (whose parents are Canadian) is actually interviewing with firms in Canada and they have applied for Canadian citizenship because of the health care benefits there... a part-time nurse, money to make their house suitable for a wheel chair, funding for an Assist Dog, etc. I suspect they'll move in the next few months and i wish them well in Canada.

Now, they have experienced joy with their oldest son, most often when he was able to communicate in a new way, but their life has been drudgery and an emotional wasteland since the kid was born. I have little doubt that they will divorce soon after the kid dies. If it sounds like I'm being bleak on purpose, I'm not... this is what's happening.

Now, there's lots of things going on here, but the one that relates to the larger societal question is what do we do when babies are born? Do we help them and their families out, or are they immediately part of the culture of "responsibility" and have to fend for themselves?

I personally don't like the idea of abortion, but wouldn't hesitate to pay for one if my daughter was raped or if the fetus was deformed. Convenient? Yes, perhaps.

 

“Defiled or immaculate. Dirty or pure. These are concepts we form in our mind. A beautiful rose we have just cut and placed in our vase is immaculate. It smells so good, so pure, so fresh. It supports the idea of immaculatedness. The opposite is a garbage can. It smells horrible, and it is filled with rotten things.

But that is only when you look on the surface. If you look more deeply you will see that in just five or six days, the rose will become part of the garbage. And if you look into the garbage can, you see that in a few months its contents can be transformed into lovely vegetables, and even a rose. "

We are a part of turkeys, bugs, chimps and other humans. We are made entirely of non-human elements. Nothing is independent or separate. Protecting human life is not possible without also protecting the lives of animals, plants, and minerals.

 

great post rimrocker. for me, it's more an argument for universal healthcare than an argument for abortion.

 

rimrocker:

With respect to healthcare, that is an ongoing problem in this country and one that needs to be addressed.

With respect to the lack of support/assistance they have received, it is truly a shame. Have they contacted their Catholic Church or Diocese to see what kind of support groups may be available?

Our Catholic Church has support groups for women (and families) who make the choice to have their baby, both during pregnancy and after the birth.

 

That is a tragic story. It hits close to home.

I only wish the story was - they had many friends and family supporting them and what started as a tragedy ended pulling a large support group close together to show one handicapped boy the true meaning of love.

 

Baby Audio pronunciation of "baby" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bb)
n. pl. ba·bies

1.
1. A very young child; an infant.
2. An unborn child; a fetus.
3. The youngest member of a family or group.
4. A very young animal.
2. An adult or young person who behaves in an infantile way.
3. Slang. A girl or young woman.
4. Informal. Sweetheart; dear. Used as a term of endearment.
5. Slang. An object of personal concern or interest: Keeping the boat in good repair is your baby.

 

Spoken like a Thich Nat Hanh reader....

 

I quote him all the time here. He spells out complex things very simply and clearly.

 

I believe all life is sacred and am not willing to turn my back on the child once it its born.

For the past 19 years I have helped run a week long overnight camp for children with special needs. One boy who I was counselor for 17 yrs ago sounds much like the boy in your story -- and I still go visit him. There was not one single time at camp where I felt that the world would be a better place if any of those kids weren't in it.

I also am a small group couneslor for kids going through broken family situations. Do I think those single mother's should have had abortions? No
Could I look any of those kids in the eye and say the world would be better off without you because your mothers life would be easier? No

 

Then the US Navy are the biggest bunch of baby killers in the whole world, today.

 

Very well said. Thank you for loving little kids; it is cruel to explain to a 5 year old little girl that if she had been killed in the womb the world would be a better place.

 

sorry to interrupt the lovefest. it's awesome that cesar does what he does but why would anybody need to tell a 5 year old something like that?

 

Of course no one would directly say that to a child (well I'm not sure no one -- but no reasonable person) but those children are the results of situations where the parent made the hard decision to value life over convenience. My point was I never met a child that was a result of that decision and thought that an abortion would have been a better choice.


I do believe we all have a responsibility to support those kids however we can.

 

i agree and i applaud your efforts. i just thought the hyperbole was weakening your case.

 

I read one of his books the other day, "being peace" it was great.

I don't have a religous bone in my body but it was excellent - people of all faiths should read buddhist works like that.

 

The law should be cold.

You are talking about a fetus that is developed, viable, and ready to be born. As far as I am concerned, if it is capable of "tak[ing] its first breath in the world," and surviving, it is worthy of protection. If it is 8 weeks old and still looks more like a bean than a human, then IMO it is the mother's choice what to do.

I don't think that viability is all that arbitrary. That is a pretty good definition of when it could reasonably be called a "life," at least to me. I respect life, but for me respect for the mother's desires trumps the "life" of an embryo or fetus (given the caveats about viability).

 

Exactly, that's what I meant, no 5 yr. old should ever hear that.