[Russia] Downed Plane In Sinai Due To Bomb, Allies With France

this all feels more like WW1 than WW2. multiple proxy wars and regional conflicts involving empires in decline.

Hermann Goering would agree with you.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">From the prison psychologist who interviewed Hermann Goering at Nuremberg, on getting the public to want war <a href="https://t.co/oeMCDvSJ0Z">pic.twitter.com/oeMCDvSJ0Z</a></p>&mdash; Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) <a href="https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/668873888315633667">November 23, 2015</a></blockquote>
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Turkish claims:



Russia claims:



either way shooting down the defenseless jet so the pilots could be shot under their canopy is despicable.

 

If Russia does something to destabilize Turkey and an insurgency starts there, things are going to deteriorate very quickly. ISIS has to sack Constantinople before the anti-Christ is defeated, so you know they are itching to get the everything started over there.

So let me get this straight...Turkey attacks the Kurds that are attacking ISIS. Russia attacks the rebels that are fighting ISIS and Assad. Now Russia and Turkey are getting involved with each other. What could possibly go wrong here?

 

Russia and their geography issues. I think they're still looking for Russian Crimea!

I'd put zero credibility into a map that was hand-sketched to avoid Turkey lol.

This is despicable. So is supporting the Assad mass torture/murder system and bombing civilian-filled villages. At some point, people are going to have to choose what shade of despicable they want to live with when it comes to Syria.

 

I hope they start funding and arming the Turkish PKK Kurds over this. I'd love if this conflict ended with the Turkish Kurds being able to get independence and merge with their allies in Syria. They would immediately become the most democratic, secular, and tolerant nation in the Middle East (maybe the world). In addition to adding a positive influence into the region, you would also be minimizing the power of Turkey in the region -- which, if one cares about minimizing the power of Islamic militants, would be a positive development.

At this point I think NATO looking the other way while Russia uses the Kurds to wage a proxy war against Turkey is the best option. NATO can't let Russia attack Turkey because of Article 5, but Russia can't do nothing to respond. Since the U.S. has good relations with the Kurds in Syria (who are allied to the Kurds in Turkey), and is probably none to happy about Turkey's support of ISIS and al Qaeda, I think looking the other way while Russia hurts Turkey by supporting the Kurds is a good way for the major powers in play here to not come into conflict.

 

We can get a better picture as we probably had a E3 AWACS up or could get info from israel. All I know is they shot down a defenseless jet for no reason and killed two pilots.

 

the "defenseless" jet was bombing civilians/FSA groups and skirting through the Turkish border, which Putin has made a point of doing pretty often. The Syrians shot down a Turkish jet in that same area. I would deplore Turkey doing it, but I wouldn't say it was for no reason, tbh.

I mean we're not talking about a jetliner full of civilians a la Ukraine, we're talking about a military jet.

 

Gotta agree with Ottomaton -- I also thought about WWI. We're obligated to Turkey even if we'd rather not be. Escalating with Russia is problematic.

I'm not too happy about the deaths of the pilots, who are just pawns in all of this. But, I believe Turkey about the repeated violation of their airspace and find them justified in shooting down the plane. Why would Russia ever respect Turkey's sovereign territory if they're too afraid to defend it? They say this has happened repeatedly. After enough complaints and warnings, you have to do something to make the other guy take you seriously. And this episode -- 12 seconds is 12 seconds too long. Russia put their pilot's life at risk.

 

I wouldn't call the Turkmen rebels "civilians" though. Aren't they 10,000 men strong and are trained & armed by Turkey as their anti-Assad force? According to BBC, they don't just cooperated with the so called "moderate" FSA but also with certified nutjob terrorist groups such as Al Nusra & Ahrar ash-Sham.

Russia will most likely increase their bombing against the Turkmen groups now.

 

Well seems like something is about to go down over there.. Errrbody sending their Navy over there. I just hope this isn't WWIII

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-21/us-french-aircraft-carriers-rush-toward-syrian-coast-find-numerous-russian-warships-

 

Zerohedge has zero credibility.

 

Why is that? I am genuinely curious.. Is it like a drudge report?

 

No -- Drudge for the most part is just an aggregate of conservative news and blogs.

Zerohedge is probably the personal blog of an ex stock trader who posts the financial apocalypse on a semi-regular basis. To their credit, they're not trying to sell anything at least superficially.

 

When my boyfriend told me one month ago we were heading for a fifth RussoTurksish war I laughed at his face. Now here we are.
Don't expect this to calm easilly tention has been building for a very long while. Now the idiot Erdogan played with fire and all hell will be loose.

 

I can't imagine that the Soviets, uh, I mean the Russians, are going to attack a member of NATO, particularly a member of NATO as powerful as Turkey, who's military isn't chopped liver. While it's a surprise that this happened, it was a combination of Putin and Erdoğan both being reckless that led to this, not Turkey alone, not by a long shot. I'm not losing sleep over this, but the skies over Syria are getting too crowded. Time to dial things down a bit there, in my humble opinion.

 

I'd just like to casually point out this will be a very bad week for Turkey

 

Why? What is Putin going to do? Attack a NATO ally? Not a chance.

He's just pissed off that Turkey didn't put up with his nonsense. Putin is a habitual line stepper that finally went too far by invading Turkey's airspace and he got checked for it leading to one of their planes getting shot down. Hopefully he learns his lesson instead of making things worse for himself.

 

He can start by increasing the sorties against the Ankara backed, armed & trained Turkmen groups, start arming the Kurds, provide more S-300 SAMs to Syria & will probably shoot down the next Turkish jet that strays into Syria territory (Syrian SAMs downed a Turkish F-4 3 years ago already)

 

Sure, those things could in theory happen, but none of those things would cause a "very bad week".

One part of it though, the shooting down of a Turkish jet in Syrian territory, wouldn't happen. Most likely Turkish jets operating in Syria would be under NATO's banner, making it an act of aggression directly against NATO causing instant war.

They can arm the Kurds and maybe fight a proxy war in Syria, but how badly does that really hurt Turkey?

 

Just 3 years ago, Syria shut down a Turkish F-4 in Syria and that didn't lead to instant war against Nato. Currently I don't think there's an unified & coordinated Nato mission in Syria like the Kosovo war, everybody is still operating under their own banners. Seem to me Turkey is far more likely to bomb the Kurds operating solo as opposed to bombing ISIS. I doubt Nato will get involved if a Russian supplied S-300 shot down a Turkish F-16 returning from a Kurd bombing raid.

How does a better armed renewed Kurd insurgency hurt Turkey? So far this year, several hundred Turkish soldiers & security personnel already died in the renewed insurgency (that's similar to US casualty # during the height of Afghanistan war). In the 30 year insurgency, Turkey already lost more soldiers than US in Iraq war and cost them an estimated $450 billion which translates to roughly 2% of GDP annually.