It is much easier for Christian populated countries to be secular democracies, because Islam is not just a religion, but a completely defined way of life. The Quran not only states how one should worship, but how they should pay charity, what forms of business and financial transactions are permitted and all forms of inheritance. It states punishment for crimes and is a complete guide to life for muslims. Iraq has been predominantly secular under the Baath party and I don't know what the people there want. Although I don't believe in a theocracy because the interpretation of the religion can create monumental changes. I think a wonderful example of how a secular democracy is an eventual in an educated society is the slow transition of Iran. After the revolution overthrowing a vile dictator, a religious democracy was created. A president is elected along with other elected officials. The only problem is there is a religious council that can overturn any election or law. Iran currently has some of the highest literacy rates among men and women in the middle east and the people are pushing for reform and to end the religious council's ability to control the country. I feel that in the next decade it will happen for Iran, a more secular democracy. But I think people must experiment with government and it will come naturally as we feel of our inalienable human rights.
Comical. I read the words Rumsfeld 'expects', 'should be', 'hope for', and No Worries implies a mandate from our Secretary of Defense.
Of course I do...History is replete with examples of powerful nations conquering areas, setting up favorable governments, and leaving...and still being a conqueror. Athens did it repeatedly...the Romans did it often to regions they wanted as 'buffer' states between themselves and their enemies. It was the most common method of post-conquest behaviour of the Mongols outside of Mongolia and China...endless examples. Conqueror does not mean staying forever...it means taking over for reasons of your own. Just like people keep misapplying history with the examples of Germany and Japan...There is a notable difference. They decalred war on us. We were acting in self-defense, and the conquest of their nations was part of that defense. In this case, Iraq has never decalred war on us, we declared war on them, and took them over. To parallel that with Japan or Germany in terms of moral justification is absurd. People without any real knowledge of history keep excusing US behaviour on the basis that we, nominally, do not seek territorial control, or not forever. That is an oversimplification of what conquest is, and not an historicaly accurate one. Many, many nations have been called conqueror for doing exactly what we have done...and some for less. And to justify our behaviour on the fact that we took the risk, paid the money, and spent the lives is ludicrous when you consider that no one asked us to, wanted us to, or said we should but we ourselves. How can we dicide to invade another nation, however poorly lead, take over that nation in the name of liberty, and then say we have the right to do X because we paid the price. It was our choice, ours alone..the rest of the world said not to do it, the people themselves were suspicious of our motives, and we maintined that we did it because of Hussein and to free the people. And now we are going to stay and set things up to our advantage because we 'earned' the right by doing what we alone wanted!?!?!?
In this country, people who tried to live like that are heavily ridiculed, mocked even. What you have described above can also be said of The Bible... in general terms. Why would we want to allow that to flourish in a new Iraq. It's fine as a lifestyle choice but dangerous as a government installed. Thanks for your input here.
I think more specifically, it can be said of the Old Testament. The Qran is more of a spiritual book in that sense, the Old Testament was Jewish law. The New Testament has never really been considered law.
So was Christianity......600 years ago. Some of you have forgotten what made this country so great. Americans (this excludes you "citizens of the world" ) believe that ALL human beings have certain inalienble rights that cannot be taken away by any government. We will stay and install a workable secular democracy because it is best for all Iraqis, not just the majority Muslim sect. For anybody to argue otherwise if baffling. Yes, we do know best, and we have proven it. The Arabs have shown the world that their form of Theocracy breeds poverty, illiteracy, ignorance, terrorism, and war. Moral relativism about this matter really exposes some ideological weaknesses in some of you.
<b>MacBeth</b>: Weren't we allies of the Kuwaitis? There was and is a coalition. Your Mongol analogies are stretched thin. They didn't have to deal with CNN and The UN. <b> It's hundreds or thousands of years later!</b> It's an entirely different world. Power gives way to politics until the political process stalls.
absolutely right...Jesus talks about how believers should deal with the world...but doesn't give instructions on how it should be governed. It doesn't read like Exodus or Leviticus.
Right on. The New Testament encompasses the spirituality. Most Christians deal with both the Old and New Testament. MadMax, stick your nose in here and take over....
Buy you dogs at JCI next time I'm in Houston.... According to John Stoessel, addiction is a choice not a disease.
Zoolander, once again, you are forced to frame your arguments falsely to properly arrive at your preconceived conclusions. Iraq agreed to certain ceasefire terms from Gulf War 1, and then immediately broke its word. Iraq then attempted to assassinate G.H.W. Bush. Iraq then fired at our planes daily, despite the fact we were flying a UN mission. Now a Iraqi scientist confirms what no less than 5 others sources have already confirmed- Iraq was working with Al Queda, and has hidden WMD. Germany and Japan are perfect examples of how we need to treat Iraq. Gulf War 1 has finally ended, and we need to give the Iraqis a lasting freedom that can only be achieved through a secular representative democracy. Who cares what other nations have done throughout history. The question is- how has the United States acted in recent history towards countries we have defeated in war, and how have those countries reacted to democracies that we helped install? Once again, you aren't telling the truth. The "rest of the world said not to do it" is a flatout falsehood. How can people debate unless the TRUTH is respected?
How so? I think the only thing I implied by "Donald knows best" is that Donald should consider joining the State Department where his publicly stated foreign policy opinions would actually be relevant.
MadMax, that's where we're meeting next time, BTW. Major and I would eat at the one in Austin nearly everyday when our offices were right across the street. That was a big factor in my ballooning to 240 lbs (down to 214 now!!). Oh, I think the people of Iraq should choose what kind of government they want, as long as it doesn't result in the lack of religious freedom.
dude, don't twist my arm like that... please don't throw me in the briar patch... (i haven't lost the God-given ability to turn any thread into one about chili dogs)
Iraq then fired at our planes daily, despite the fact we were flying a UN mission. You have an active imgination. The UN did not support the No Fly zones.
are you sure??? weren't those a mandate as terms of surrender??? i dont' know for sure, but that's certainly how i understood it.
Hey guys, guess what....RUMSFIELD IS RIGHT !! If you don't like it tough. We took out Saddam, we freed the people, and we get to make the rules, at least until the Iraqi people are ready to make their own decisions. It would be great if everyone could just hold hands and sing cumbayaa....now wouldn't it. Too bad the Iraqi people needed us to free them, since that happened, we have the right to set up a government that protects ALL the Iraqi people. Theocracies are a joke, it is another form of dictatorship and is NOT a good way to go. Too bad that people on this board can't accept the reality that we are in charge in Iraq, and we will set up a government that benefits ALL the people not just the Shi-ite muslim majority. Once the government is in place and stable, we will leave as a governing body(except for the permanent basis that we will set up in Iraq). Then the Iraqi people will enjoy the freedoms that the rest of the civilized world gets to enjoy, and the rest of the middle east will fall like dominoes. DD
