I think this is pretty hilarious for two reasons: 1. If someone called me a "Texasman" or a "Americaman", how would that be offensive? 2. There is another term that I won't mention here that is widely used as a derogatory term towards Chinese (and Asians in general), and it is definitely not "chinaman". But, the point is that if people decide to take things personally, there's really nothing you can do about it. The original intent was not to be derogatory, and I think that's the important thing. Combining "China" and "man" into a single word is a far cry from some of the other terms that people use to try and degrade people of other races / colors / creeds. That's why I see this thread as so completely ridiculous. I guess there are just some people out there who are so hyper-sensitive about everything they're always going to find some way to raise an issue about something. If you call me a "hick" because I'm from Texas, that's one thing. But a "Texasman"? Give me a break, that's not a bad word. If you call me a "kike" because I'm Jewish, I'd be pretty offended, but a "Jewishman" or "Jew"? That's pretty innocuous. However, take that one step further. "Jewishman" vs. "Jewboy". Now there's a problem. However, I don't think anyone was calling Ming or anyone else a "Chinaboy". Now, in my opinion, <b>THAT</b> would be pretty low.
One more time -- one last time -- for those of you who seem to have trouble getting the message. Good intentions will only take you so far in life. I may have the best of intentions in referring to Steve Francis as "colored" or in referring to Les Alexander as a "Hebrew." Once it has been explained to me that blacks and Jews don't like to be referred to by these terms, however, my responsibility is to respect them by not using those terms. If I persist in using the terms, or I tell them I don't "care" how they feel about it, or I dismiss their feelings as "pc crap," or I insist that "real men" can use these terms whenever they feel like it, I cease to be an uninformed person of good intentions, and I become simply a jerk. And eventually, I get banned. For complicated historical reasons, the term "Chinaman," unlike the term "Englishman" or "Frenchman," has acquired a derogatory connotation to the people whom it is meant to describe. At this point, quarreling about it doesn't help. I leave it to the Chinese and Chinese-American posters on this board to clarify the terms they prefer. I really would like to get back to talking basketball. All we need is for the slower people in the class to absorb this very simple preliminary lesson in respecting other people's feelings.
The connotation of the word is derogatory, weather you understand it or not. Why would anybody think the word "boy" was offensive? Silly, right? If you call a black male a person a "boy" why on earth would they be offended? It's what they are. But the historical use of the word gives it a very different meaning to the black American male who hears it, so it is only polite not to use it, whether you understand that meaning or not. The same logic applies to the word "Chinaman," whether you understand its historical context or not.
Yes, good point. My only point is that to someone who doesn't know this, it is hard to make the distinction. I don't disagree with the fact that some Chinese people would find this term offensive. I'm just saying that it is one of those terms that is easily mistaken for innocuous. Like I said in my post, people will get offended by certain words that otherwise are not intended that way. To me, the intention is more important than saying the words. There are some words that are widely known to be derogatory. I think that "Chinaman" fits into a category that not many people know is derogatory. It all depends on who is hearing it. I believe some would be offended, and some wouldn't. It is definitely one of the less harsh terms that have been used.
I agree with your first part. There is kind of a difficult grey area where both sides should show some tolerance. If you use such a word innocently, fair enough. Someone should explain the meaning to you politely, not by shouting you down, and then you shouldn't use it anymore. If someone is consciously, provocatively using it, that's a different story. As far as how harsh a word it is, I think we should let Chinese people decide that. There was a comment on that earlier in the thread.
That just sounded extremely funny, I'm sorry for the laughter. But seriously, I do not think he meant any harm by saying that. He had no clue what it meant. The way he reacted wasn't good, but still, I don't think its that big of a deal. People can call me whatever racist comment they want (I'm half) and I won't really care. I guess it all matters if it offends the person or not.
I am an hispanic (mexican man if you will) growing up in a time when racism was more blatant and I was the butt of it at times. I have some experience of being mistreated because of my race... I also i'm light skin and don't really look hispanic and and people mistakenly thinking that I am anglo and made derogatory comments and jokes about my race. I remember I was sitting at a bar (actually I think I was watching a rockets game) and a guy next to me ask me, "How come wetbacks never get abducted by alien spaceships?" I was curious what he would say so I said I don't know and he responded, "Cause when they look up in the sky and see a bright light shining down, they run for the hills screaming "immigration, immigration". I admit it did annoy me... but that was because the intent was to put down my race... but at the same time I mostly felt the man was just uneducated in my culture... I did tell him I was hispanic and he quickly apologized and said he was a stupid german kraut himself and offered to by me a beer and when I didn't accept he left... The thing is sometimes people aren't aware they are being offensive and I don't have a problem with that but once you understand you are then it is your choice to continue or not. A Chinese person has come on this board and said referring to him as a chinaman is offensive I will respect that and refrain from calling Chinese men chinamen.
Wow...I never thought that this thread would explode like it did (or maybe I did since racism was brought up (not by me) (that's cool...triple parentheses!)). Seriously, I figured that chip didn't know about that & I certainly don't feel that there was any malicious intent. However, until the draft, we are going to be having new people from all over the world joining this site. I would guess that some of them will come from China or are of Chinese descent. The last thing we need to do is to make light of a sensitive issue with them (which is what chip did when he said he didn't care what people think). We even have heard in this thread that one Chinese poster did not like that term. You would think that would be the end of it?? Right?? NOOOOO---then Will pretty much does everything he can to stop this discussion and get back to basketball without closing the thread. Did it stop then??? Hell, no. It's like some people here can't believe that term is offensive. Well, a Chinese person said it WAS offensive and that should be all anyone needs to know. Why it is still an issue AND this thread has not been closed is a mystery to me.
Grizzled, The difference between 'chinaman' and the N word is quite simple. The N word, in all contexts, is considered offensive. If you can find a definition the N word where it is not stated as disparaging I'd like to see it. 'Chinaman', on the other hand, has mutliple definitions one of which is offensive and one of which is not offensive. When given multiple defitions of a word YOU MUST LOOK AT CONTEXTS TO SEE WHAT IT MEANS! Look, I'm not saying every offensive word should be looked at for content. Most offensive words have only offensive definitions so there's no need to see what was meant to be said. What was meant to be said is obvious, it only has disparaging definitions so it was obviously used to be offensive. However, if a word has mutliple definitioins then ALL definitions must be examined with the contexts. Words like 'fagot', 'gay', 'chink', and 'gook' are all examples of words that can be used in a disparaging manner or used in perfectly valid sentences. You must check the CONTEXT. Here you go, decipher what I'm saying: I got some gook all over my hands today. Oh well, I'm apparently being offensive to Vietnamese people, right? No, I'm simply saying that some sticky junk got all over my hands, but if you don't check context and simply take the notion that the first offensive definition is the correct one then you would not only completely miss what was being said but also start some 60 post thread on definitions of the word 'gook.'
SIMPLY put, if somebody doesn't want you to call them something, DON'T I repeat DON'T call them that. How the hell can calling somebody Chinaman not be offensive? Where does the N word come from? It's basically an archaic term for Nigerians. Think about it people. Once again, there are Chinese people on this board who have stated that it's an offensive term. CHINESE PEOPLE HAVE STATED ITS AN OFFENSIVE TERM. End of conversation.
This whole thread reminds me of my thirteen year old son, who is in the grip of testosterone poisoning. When he is told that he is getting on people's nerves he does not apologize. He does not stop what he's doing. Instead he tells everyone in range that he is NOT GETTING ON ANYONE'S NERVES! In fact, people are getting on HIS nerves! When a term has more than one meaning, the derogatory meaning always "wins out". Don't agree? Then try refering to an eccentric friend as "queer" (means unusual, right?) or a happy friend as "gay". Simple test: 1. find a seedy looking bar in Chinatown. 2. Go in on a Saturday night, when it's full of people. 3. Walk to the center of the room and shout "Hey Chinaman!" 4. Report back to us if anyone found this offensive.
Where to begin? Let's start with your assertion that the N word is offensive "in all contexts". Anybody that has seen a movie like Rush Hour or Training Day knows that in some contexts that the "N word" can be used in non-offensive manner, so that pretty much defeats your distinction between it and the "C word". Nevertheless, nobody should expect to be able to use either word in a public forum without expecting someone to be offended by them. PC or not, it's just plain inconsiderate (especially after others have told you that the word offended them). Bad example. It's clear that you are not labelling a race with the word "gook". Now try using the label "gook" as a racial descriptor without sounding offensive. Can't do it? How about a word like "negro" a bastardization of the anthropological term "negroid" (and the root of the more deragotory "N word")? I bet you, someone will still be offended by it. I think I'll just continue using the more descriptive and less offensive terms like Chinese man myself. Typing in 3 extra letters and space is a small price to pay for not inadvertantly offending my fellow posters.
