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Rudy T / Dream offense & Harden / McHale offense

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OTMax, May 17, 2016.

  1. marky :)

    marky :) Member

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    The differences are that they had the Dream, played defense, make 3's, and had heart...
     
  2. hakeemthagreat

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    It's definitely true


    What you're confusing plays with is offensive sets. Yes we ran offensive sets. But as far as plays, ball/player movement, off the ball screens, baseline pindowns etc, the Rockets never played that way under Rudy or McHale. McHale shouldn't count because we all know Moreyball is a product of Daryl Morey
     
  3. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Rudy T used Hakeem to draw double team in the post and put 3pt shooters in the perimeter.

    It is actually quite simple. If the defense doubles Hakeem, he kicks out to the outside shooters. So the remaining 3 defenders will have to scramble to cover 4 guys in a big space. If the defense does not double Hakeem in the post, we all know what will happen.

    You can't do that with Harden or any guard because they can't play in the low post, at least not all the time. With a dominating perimeter player, the spacing is totally different. You have to use screens.
     
  4. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    Wow if you truly believe that then there's a new low of stupidity..
     
  5. don grahamleone

    don grahamleone Contributing Member

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    Nice thread. The big difference is that Dream was an Omega player and Harden is Alpha and Omega. I think the rest of the team will be more interested in playing next to Harden if he's not the Alpha and the Omega. Either find different ways to get him the ball (so that more players touch the ball), find an Omega (like Durant), or have someone else start the plays.
     
  6. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
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    We have bricklayers supporting Harden, so that creates a problem.

    Also, an interesting note is that the 94-95 team led the league in 3pters attempted and made.
     
  7. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    That was the point that he realized his teamates could play too and it was much different after that......Harden needs that moment too.

    DD
     
  8. BackNthDay

    BackNthDay Member

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    All I know is that the Warriors offense will beat any team 9 out of 10, why because it requires all 5 defenders to play D and not stand around resting on Defense. Yes, they lost last night and I'm glad for it. Big ups to Billy D for sticking with the big boy lineup.
     
  9. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    As pointed out, the rule differences between the two eras were completely different. In Hakeem's prime, teams couldn't double without the ball and defenders had to be near their man. Also, once a defender left his man to double team then he had to apply the double team, he couldn't go half way and then go back to his man.

    That made some things easier. It was common practice to put 3 players on the opposite side of the court from the ball and thereby force their defenders to go with them (at least to the other side of the lane). That meant that when we made entry passes to Olajuwon he was being guarded 1-on-1 and that the fastest double team was the man guarding the player making the entry pass. That was the fastest double but it also left the player making the entry pass wide open. There wasn't much defenses could do about it. Either you tried to play Hakeem straight up, you gave up an open shot to the player making the entry pass or you hoped that one of the 3 weakside defenders could get over quick enough to help with a double.

    This practice was even more pronounced for players who were good penetrators or that could back their man down. They would allow you to put 4 players on the opposite side of the floor and really create 1-on-1 matchups.

    The issue was that the league turned into games of 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. Barkley was so strong that most players couldn't hold their position against him. Once Barkley got the ball, all of his teammates would go to the opposite side of the floor to guarantee him single coverage. Barkley would then start to methodically back his man down toward the hoop. The whole time he would be watching for a double team coming from the weak side and when it did he simply passed to his unguarded teammate. During Barkley's slow methodical backdown from the top of the key to the basket he would be quick to point out any illegal defenses to the referees if the weakside defender cheated too far without committing to the double team.

    All of these things made for a very slow and ugly game. The NBA countered by adopting a couple of rules changes to prevent these practices (prior to legalizing forms of zone). One of the changes prevented teams from placing 4 player on the weakside. The other rule,"the Barkley rule", instituted a 5 second time limit on player trying to back down their opponent. The 5 second count began when the player crossed below the foul line.

    Finally the league did away with most illegal defense restrictions and added a defensive 3 second rule.

    Back in the '90s it was much slower and more deliberate isolations. To give you an idea, here's a quote from the NBA's then senior VP Rod Thorn explaining the logic for instituting the Barkley rule (5 second backdowns):

    The five-second backdown rule begins the moment a player below the foul line bounces the ball. He will have five seconds to make a move, pass or shoot. "No more of a player backing smaller guys down for 15 to 20 seconds," Thorn said.

    http://articles.philly.com/1999-09-25/sports/25487500_1_contact-rules-coaches-hand-checking.

    Here's a video of highlights from Barkley's 56 point game in the '94 playoffs vs GS. You can see the Barkley isolation/backdown on a great number of the shots. Barkley is going for 56 points yet he's allowed to catch the ball and play 1-on-1 due to the defensive rules at the time. Compare that to the help defense that the current Warriors use to clog the lane. Notice how Barkley back his man down just a few feet from Chris Webber but Webber won't double team because that would leave Mark West wide open for the pass under the rim.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY6X__wpzk4


    Today's spreading the floor and isolating was nothing compared to what was done under the old rules. Jerry Coleangelo headed up the rules committee that relaxed the illegal defense rules and instituted the defensive 3 second rule. He actually used Houston as an example of what they were trying to prevent:

    ''A typical Houston set is giving one guy the ball and sending everyone else away from him,'' Colangelo said. ''Hardly anyone else is even involved. It's not the lack of ball movement. People wonder whatever happened to the lost art of offensive rebounding. Players are no longer in position to rebound because of some of these sets.''

    Pat Riley had a different opinon:
    Isolation basketball has been part of the game ever since I've been in it.''


    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/12/s...ense-rule-will-most-likely-be-eliminated.html


    That's a long way of saying that the '90's Rockets offense was much more about ISO than the current offense. The ISO then was enabled by the defensive rules and started on postups to Hakeem. Today they start with Harden at the top of the circle.

    Back in the '90s the ball went through Hakeem. He had a similar useage rate as Harden did this year but Hakeem shot more and passed less. That wasn't a bad thing though since the defensive rules gave Olajuwon lots of 1-on-1 opportunites which was a huge advantage for the Rockets. Later the George Karl Sonics bent the illegal defense rules and basically dared the officials to keep calling illegal defenses on them. Refs didn't and the Sonics were allowed to double and triple Hakeem in ways that the rules really didn't allow. In those situations Hakeem passed much more.

    The offenses in both eras were built on the idea of a dominant offensive player forcing opponents to either allow them to attack a single defender or giving up open shots. It was just used much more in the '90s because it was so hard to stop. This year the Rockets ISO less than 10% of the time and they run PnR about 20% of the time. Houston ran an isolation for Hakeem way more than that. Why wouldn't they? It was very difficult to stop.
     
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  10. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    I think that you are confusing your timeline.

    In '90-91 Olajuwon fractured his orbital socket (courtesy of Bill Cartwright) in early January but he was back playing by the time the team went on their 13 game winning streak that season. He played in all 13 of the wins.

    Also, Hakeem's assists didn't go up until the '92-'93 season. In fact, in '90-'91 he had better assist number before the injury than he did after and during the winning streak. In the early days Hakeem usually averaged 2.2 to 2.9 assists per game. In his best season he only averaged 3.6 (two times). His assist totals really didn't change that much.

    We got swept 3-0 by the Lakers in the '90-'91 playoffs and Hakeem only averaged 2 assists per game.

    The following season ('91-'92) was the year that Steve Patterson accused Olajuwon of faking an injury and suspended him and almost traded him. We finished 42-40 and missed the playoffs.

    The '92-'93 season is where everything turned around. We ended the year losing an epic game 7 to Seattle. The thing that changed in '92-'93 is that Hakeem started shooting the ball more. His shot attempts jumped almost 3 shots per game and continued to increase through each of the two championship seasons. Likewise his pts/game jumped 4.5 pts/game in that '92-'93 season and rose each of the next two seasons. He went from a guy scoring 21.6 to eventually scoring 27.8 in '95.
     
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  11. Jturbofuel

    Jturbofuel Member

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    That is selective memory Hakeem was done as a player who could be the focal point of the offense after 97 Rudy changed the offense and built it around Francis and Mobley because they were our best offensive players after Hakeem's knee injury in 97. He wasn't the same at all.


    He had a good year in 99 for a 35yr old, but Shaq just killed him in that series vs the Lakers and he couldn't stay healthy for a full season after that and it was like that until he retired. I didn't like him leaving for the Raptors, but I understood it was the right move for the team he didn't deserve that 3rd year and 3 million more he was asking for on that last contract. It turned out to be the right move because he lasted one half season and the back injury ended his career.
     
  12. HadToDoItCF

    HadToDoItCF Member

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    Comparing offense from the hand check and illegal defense era to the modern NBA is the start of the issues in this thread. The know-it-all approach just makes it downright loathable.
     
  13. CCity Zero

    CCity Zero Member

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    Lol, so... Others have already pointed timelines out... But also go rewatch Clutch City special... You're mixing championship 1 and 2 up, lol. Elie's kiss of death 95 (2nd chip), SA Horry (2nd chip)... So Hakeem and co weren't a team in 94 yet???
     
  14. SF3isBack!!

    SF3isBack!! Member

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    You need better shooters. Shooters who shoot well above average and since the Rockets don't have that, plus a big man who can play an offense game or shoot free throws you need an offense with ball and player movement. Again the Rockets have a talent problem.
     
  15. CCity Zero

    CCity Zero Member

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    ^Or. Heck as also pointed out in 93 (obviously lost to Sonics), but they were pretty damn good too... (post from aelliott)
     
  16. WestendMassive

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    Harden probably needs some teammates that can actually play before he has his Hakeem epiphany
     
  17. CCity Zero

    CCity Zero Member

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    :) that certainly could help. Shoot, if they could hit regular shots Harden would get 12+ assists a night probably.
     
  18. CCity Zero

    CCity Zero Member

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    And DD, I know you know all that, just messing. I also rewatched a lot of old bball over weekend, so frustrated atm (it was great to experience back then), closest playoff excitement/win from way behind since the 90s teams would have to be LAC series last year. Hopefully offseason looks good... I'm not looking forward to a long time for a real chance at winning.

    If Harden gets some teammates that can shoot, that'd certainly help.
     
  19. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    The league decided they prefer to make being Strong and Big a disadvantage more than an Advantage.
    Speed and Quickness are stressed

    Big guys are penalized in this league.
    They stress certain skills over others.
    The Low Post Game has been nearly eliminated in the modern league.
    By limiting the amount of time to work down low is a tremendous advantage for smaller players and weak defenders
    Meanwhile
    We have relegated the Bigger players to being Duane brown and blocking for the smaller players

    Rocket River
     
  20. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    In the Championship years, Hakeem was playing isolation basketball quite often. And OKC just beat San Antonio - OKC a team attacked as play way too much Isoball. Rudy T gave Olajuwon more isolations, not less!!!

    Fact is ISOball has value. You isolate your best player against a guy who has trouble defending them which forces the defense into awkward double teams or rotations, that's the point. It's about exploiting a weakness.

    Harden is a very efficient scorer and gets a lot of assist. He isn't a selfish isoball player. When he is on the bench or getting others involved as a priority, the team struggles badly to score.

    He can be a better off the ball player - that is true. And a great coach could help him learn how to do something a lot better - that is true. But "isoball" isn't going to go away, because in crunch time, it is effective.
     

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