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Rudy T’s non lottery draft selections

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by crash5179, Oct 5, 2002.

  1. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Contributing Member
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    Pau Gasol and Stromile Swift, 2 top 3 picks, did not stop West from picking another PF-the Nets could've done the same. The Grizz could've traded Bibby to keep Francis (assuming that it was all about playing PG, totally different issue). BPA over need in the top few picks. Sam Bowie vs. Michael Jordan. So on. So forth.

    The point, as clarified by crash, and as interpreted by most from the original post, is looking at Rudy's track record at identifying NBA talent (and attitude).

    Francis/Griffin are products of the Rockets scouting system. Some soured on Francis because of perceived attitude problems. Francis, while not the model player, has not been a head case like a JR Rider, or a Rasheed Wallace of a couple years ago.

    Likewise, Griffin was perceived to be the same; had he punched out a teammate this year, it would be considered a blunder on the draft department not making the correct diagnosis on his persona. He has been one of the quietest NBA players around.

    The point is about the draft scouting. Whether or not they were drafted by the Rockets, or were traded before ever signing an NBA contract with anyone else, these players still fall under the Rockets' scouting
     
  2. CoPilot

    CoPilot Member

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    NEW YORKER PLZS PLZS use your brain here you said

    I don't think Rudy or CD are good scouts...what they are good at is taking a player and helping them reach their potential. That's not a small thing, in fact, it may be more valuable then good scouting considering the number of players who are talented and turn into disappointments (Vin Baker, Shawn Kemp, and so on).

    One of the things Rocket Alumni are known for is professionalism and a hard nosed work attitude. Horry, Cassel, Elie, Othella, Dickerson, are all classy individuals. Maybe that's why they are still in the league and significant contribitutors to their teams.


    Good scouting says you are able to see potential in a player where ever he is picked 1st in draft or last of your picks and have him make your or anyones team in the NBA

    all of thoses pick shown here are NBA players and Rudy T is the man that got them there start in the NBA

    Horry for example is a pick EVERYONE bemoaned over that he was picked before some other player

    Now Horry has more rings than the Shaq and Kobe

    I say if Rudy T says that a player is a NBA player ...TAKE it to the bank bet the house on it BECAUSE Rudy T...IS THE BEST THERE IS .....:cool:
     
  3. Cat5

    Cat5 Member

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    The reason why teams passed on Kobe is because he said he only wanted to play in a big market city (New York, L.A. or Chicago). At the time High School player could enter the draft, see what happens then decide if they wanted to go to college (Duke) or play in the NBA even if an agent was hired. Now that is all changed. Kobe turn down per-draft workout with teams like New Jersey who had the #8 pick that year among others.

    Yes, it was pre-arrange.
     
  4. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    This is simply not true.

    Houston had no idea it would have a chance at Francis until Francis refused to play in Vancouver. They selected him at number 2. Houston saw an opportunity to get a deal by taking Vancouver to the cleaners....which they did. The Grizzles had no choice.

    Had the Grizzlies been in Memphis, steve francis may be in Tennessee right now...especially with West on Board. Houston got totally lucky with Francis, and anyone who thinks anything else is just being a homer.
     
  5. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    NIKEstrad was right on in his explanation. The more I think about it the more I think the Francis situation is the perfect example of a good organization and a bad one. Why did Vancouver draft Francis in the first place if they were going to have such a hard time signing him. Do you think Rudy T or Jerry West would not have done their homework? They would have either drafted someone else or made a draft day trade in order to get top value for the pick.

    You say that it is just luck that we ended up with Francis and I agree. There is a certain amount of luck in every pick a team makes unless it is the number 1 pick.

    Say what you want about Francis not being picked by Rudy T on draft day but Rudy still had to pay the price to acquire Francis before Steve ever had a chance to prove himself on an NBA court. Rudy T still took the chance to get Francis and his ability to recognize Steve's talent can not be disputed. Rudy T recognized Francis and Griffin talent before they ever played one second of NBA ball or participated in one second of NBA practice and he brought then to Houston. That is two feathers in Rudy T’s cap. And If Steve Francis was such a steal then why didn’t some other GM step up and out bid the Rockets for Steve’s draft rights. Only Rudy T had that kind of confidence in Steve’s ability as a player and his character as a person.
     
  6. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    The only sense that Francis was a steal is that the Rockets were smart enough to steal him from vancouver. Houston basically offered the most to vancouver, and Houston wasn't the only team bidding for him. Everyone knew Francis wasn't a bust, only if he was really a point guard or a shooting guard.

    Coming into the draft, he was the projected #1, he ended up 2. Vancouver didn't realize he'd make a big scene of disgust about playing there. Ironcially, Francis is still being dogged by the draft day questions...can he be a true floor general? Can he avoid his tendencies to get frustrated and sulk?

    I think he'll outgrow these things. But regardless, he wasn't some discovery by Rudy T...everyone knew that Francis was probably the best player in the draft and the kind of player you could build a team around. What else was there to scout? His good nature? He was know as a hard player all along.

    I like Rudy T a lot, but he's not god ok? Griffin was a good pickup, but he still hasn't bloomsomed into a star or even a robert horry yet.

     
  7. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Contributing Member
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    Had Olowokandi's stock not risen from #2 to #1 a day or 2 before the draft, Bibby is the #1 pick to the Clippers, and Olowokandi then may go to Vancouver, allowing Steve to get picked the next year, and play PG in Vancouver. Then, maybe the NBA still has 2 franchises in Canada. Save the conditional reasoning for someone else.

    Houston got lucky. A freak opportunity came about, and we seized it. Just like we pulled a 20 ppg gem out of the 2nd round, landed Ming when the odds were against it, and happened to have exactly what NJ was looking for when the #1 guy on our draft list slipped to the #7 slot.

    But, Francis was not that sure of a thing. If he were, the Grizz could've gotten more than a decent SG, and a serviceable PF/C. He still was the 6-3 guard who had played JuCo ball before going to Maryland. He still was the college SG, who had not proven he could be a PG. No doubt, he was electrifying, but forget about him coming to the NBA as a SG after his claims of not wanting to play in Vancouver because he couldn't be the PG. And he was also the immature kid who pouted on national TV on the first appearance where he could have any official affiliation.

    The Rockets department still had work to do on Francis. They still had to try and figure out if Francis was a headcase to be or just misunderstood.

    Then again, assume you don't agree with that.

    Regardless, the Francis deal is a credit to the Rockets organization, either their scouting ability of him, and/or their scouting/development of others (Dickerson/Harrington) to create the expendable assets needed to acquire the #2 pick in the draft.
     
  8. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    I don't know why some people fuss about trade vs draft. The point of the thead is the ability to evaluate talent BEFORE a player plays a game in the NBA.

    You snatch (by whatever means) a talent BEFORE he plays a game means that you are either very lucky or you are good at spotting gems. That's the point of the thread.

    Only people like New Yorker cannot see the importance of evaluating POTENTIAL.
     
  9. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    Of course. I never said they didn't evaluate players before they trade for them, obviously they had or they wouldn't have packaged so many picks and players for Steve and EG. Pretty easy work though... ;)
     
  10. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    I'm not denying that, but this thread is about draft picks and Houston scouting...which I think is average.

    Basically, the reason Houston has Francis and Griffin is because everyone knew they were talented (Houston scouts only had to listen to everyone else) but other teams shied away from them because they thought they would be trouble makers.

    Rudy T and the rockets are very good at developing players. I don't think Griffin nor mobley would ever become anything playing on other teams. I think Francis would be a whiner...and actually, he still pouts too much. Do the Rockets get credit for going after very talented players with so-called "attitude problems?" Of course, but just remember Francis with his attitude problems was still a projected #1. Griffin was a projected top #3 until is stock fell late. Houston scouting didn't take any risks here, it was a personality test more then an assessment of their ability.

    The point of this thread is to evaluate how good the scouting is on the Rockets, and the facts show that it's average at best. Houston develops players very well. But I think their draft picks leave a lot to be desired. Now, you can name 4 players they actually drafted out of 22 that became significant role players or starters, and I say that's pretty bad.

     
  11. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    I agree. How hard was it to pull the trigger on Francis when the Rockets were in the position they were at the time - 3 older players fading out, Othella was good but wasn't the best fit for us, and Dickerson was expendable (Cat) if a good point came along. No brainer... not like they scouted Francis and Vancouver picked him for us.

    They did scout Eddie and had him high on their list. I'm sure that NJ and Houston probably had talked trade at some point prior to Griffin being available, but I wonder really if it centered on Griffin.
     
  12. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    Absolute crap! You can only go by the players the Rockets acquired and you are trying to penalize them for the position that they took them. 28 other GMs had a chance to put together a better deal for Francis than the Rockets did and they chose not to for what ever reason. Don't blame Rudy for that.

    At least do the research before you start making claims. Lets break it down with Eddie Griffin:

    1. Washington, LAL, Chicago and Golden State all had one pick before Eddie was picked and they chose not to pick him.
    2. Memphis had 2 picks and chose not to pick him.
    3. New Jersey chose not to keep his draft rights (which by the way they did draft Eddie with the intentions of trading him if the Rockets could secure the players that they wanted).
    4. Boston had 3 first round picks that they could have used to trade with N.J. 9,10 and 21. Picks 9 and 10 alone would have been better than Houston’s 3 picks.

    The fact is Rudy T. is the only one that wanted Eddie bad enough to make the deal.

    You can not penalize Rudy for making the no brainer decision.

    Here is the good players that started their careers with Jerry West in the last 11 years:
    Nick Van Exel
    Eddie Jones
    Kobe Bryant
    Ruben Patterson


    Here is Rudy T’s good players over the same time span:
    Sam Cassell
    Robert Horry
    Cuttino Mobley
    Steve Francis
    Eddie Griffin
    Michael Dickerson
    Kenny Thomas


    The Clippers (With lots of lottery picks):
    Lamar Odom
    Maurice Taylor
    Brent Barry
    Lamond Murray
    Michael Olowokandi
    Lorenzen Wright


    People intentionally left of:
    Darius Miles (in two years he has done nothing)
    Othella Harrington (because you say so)
    Derek Fisher (at least Othella avg’d 13 pts and 7 rebounds one year Fisher cant even avg 4 assists the last two years passing to Shaq and Kobe)

    If you penalize Rudy T for making the obvious no brainer picks then what do you do to the Clipps for blowing the number 1 pick on Kandi when Mike Bibby, Paul Peirce, Vince Carter and Dirk Nowitzki were all on the board? Houston got Michael Dickerson and Cuttino Mobley and they have both had better careers than Kandi and neither were no brainer picks.

    And where in the he11 do you get 4 players out of 22? The Rockets have suited up 28 rookies over the last 11 years and 24 were non-lottery picks. I have 7 significant players listed here not including Yao, Boki or Othella. When Yao and Boki prove their worth it will be 9 significant contributors.

    Be honest which group of players would you rather have? The group picked by West, Rudy T or LAL?
    Speaking of No Brainers I think that is a no brainer question. It goes to Rudy T hands down.


    NewYorker I ask you again which GM, or Coach or Organization has suited up more good quality NBA talent as rookies than Rudy T? If you don’t know how to do the research then just tell me who you think has done a better job than Rudy T and I will research it for you. Just don’t make accusations with out baking it up with facts.
     
    #52 crash5179, Oct 7, 2002
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2002
  13. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    That is a great paragraph. Houston pays for a scouting department but instead of listening to them they listen to everyone else. That's perfect. No need for a scouting dept when we can just take the advice of the Clippers.

    According to you the other teams scouting depts. shied away from Francis and Griff because of perceived character flaws that did not exist. Both Francis and Griff have been model citizens since they have been here. Well guess what Rudy T's scouting depts. got it right, there was nothing wrong with either Francis or Griff's character. I guess in those cases Rudy T and the Rockets scouting department did a better job than the rest of the league.
     
  14. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    If Francis was such a fire sale then why didn't some other organization step up to the plate and out bid the Rockets for his rights?

    Simple question.
     
  15. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Ronald Jones, Mirsad Turcan should be removed from list since their rights were traded before they signed if Griffin, Kobe, and Francis are to be counted for Rocks and LAL.

    If not, was the Spinach Man at least counted as a good role player/player still in NBA?
     
  16. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    Good point!
     
  17. Rocketman15

    Rocketman15 Member

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    Look at Orlando's Picks in 1993-1994
    also, Toronto picked T-Mac Carter Camby Stoudmire not bad in 6 years
     
  18. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    Neither you nor I can answer that question since we don't know what other deals Vancouver was offered. MAYBE, just maybe, Vancouver thought Dickerson and Harrington with the other players thrown in was much better then they should have thought. We just have no idea.

    As for their attitudes, how much was them, and how much was it Rudy T's coaching and teaching them to be model citizens? Again, neither of us know for sure.

    As for the comparison with west, I think it's hard because West and Rudy T/CD were in very different positions. The Lakers have been more competitive over the last 11 years then the Rockets, so naturally West is going to get lower quality picks on average.

    Also, I never declared West to be the best scout in the world. Kobe was certainly a find tough. I mean, he outclasses everyone on either list. I'm not going to put Francis or Griffin on your list, nor Dickerson who may already be on the decline of his career.

    I'm not an expert on the draft by any means, but if you look at Toronto or NJ, they certainly seem to have done well from drafting stars to role players.

    Like I said, Cd/RudyT are just average in my opinion. The evidence is just not there to change my mind. If Eddie Griffin lives up to the hype on this bbs, and Boki is the next uber-euro, and Yao fufills expectation...if all that happens...then I'd have to agree with you. That's a number 1, a number 7, and a number 15.

    As of right now, none have them have shown Rudy to be some super scout.

    The players that say wonders about Rudy is Mario Elie, Cassel, Horry, Mobley, KT, and even Vernon Maxwell. It's not that they were super stars, none of them are, and only Cassell turned into a star so far. But all these guys are such fierce competitors, and have found ways to consistantly contribute...and I think that speaks volumes of Rudy T. Is it scouting? I don't think so. I think these players were made, not discovered.

    That's where we disagree. You claim they were discovered with great scouting, and I claim they were developed with great coaching. None of them were stars from day one, the came about over time.

    Anyway, I don't have anything more to say on this thread. So the end.

     
  19. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    Prove it. You don't know that.

    Crap. They weren't drafted by the Rockets. Them and the teams that drafted them obviously knew that they were valuable. Francis didn't want to play in Vancouver. Bibby would/did. Dickerson and Bibby were a good match, they had played before. Vancouver didn't want to trade Steve until forced to. Give me facts posers...

    You agree. So where is all the great pre draft planning then? Duh...

    Crap. Steve didn't want to play in Vancouver. Period. That's why he was traded for less than he was worth. Period. No magical scouting and/or Rockets preplanning was involved. Period.

    Oh, right. And this staff figured that out about Lewis Lloyd, John Lucas and Vernon Maxwell before they dealt with them too... :rolleyes:

    1. So what? Did they need him at 19 or the person they chose?
    2. So what? Didn't they trade for brand? Why would they draft a 19 year old unproven 4?
    3. Antwain Jamison

    So they were smart enough to realize they could better fill their needs with the 3 picks (just like NJ felt the same way) over a 19 year old PF that would take 2-3 years to help them? What genius escaped them over the Rockets? :rolleyes:

    Wrong. CD and Les are the ones that make the deals. Of course Rudy is involved. Besides, how does this make him so freakin' smart or the organization so smart. Look how far NJ went with Jefferson last year...

    How about the Rockets?

    Michael Jordan, Rashard Lewis.. etc. You could the same thing with them.

    Others tried real hard. Apparently we offered them more of what they needed/wanted. Making trades like that is very hard to do under the CBA. Dickerson / Bibby with Othella and filler probably looked real good to them. It was a good fit with Shareef.

    Agreed. If anything, the Rockets are good at getting players that they feel they need and developing the talent. By whatever means, draft, CBA or trades.

    The Rockets have not done anything special over anyone else in the draft. I would say thier ability to make big trades ranks high, and thier ability to find and then develop mediocre players and fit them into their system ranks high.
     
  20. OT

    OT Member

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    Good thread Crash.
     

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