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Rudy T’s non lottery draft selections

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by crash5179, Oct 5, 2002.

  1. Sane

    Sane Member

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    Just to clear Phil Jackson's name....How often did he go to the lottery to make picks? Exactly...He was always in the Finals, not the lottery.


    Still, I agree, Rdy and Cd have done a great job. Let's see how they'll use the talent now.
     
  2. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    T2,
    That’s cool you can put him there if you want. Some of the player analysis are mainly opinion based anyway. There are the obvious ones like Kobe, Francis, Cat, Van Exel…but when we start talking about guys like Fisher we know he is a role player but how big of a role player is open to debate.

    NewYorker,
    See my reply to T2 and apply it to Othella. When I think of Othella I sometimes think of Kenny Thomas but the truth is that Othella has not been able to produce the same kind of numbers that Kenny has so you are probably right about him.

    I never said that 12 players have had good NBA careers I said that 12 are still in the NBA and that 5 have been productive. While we can argue about what kind of role Othella has had I don’t think we can argue that he is in any real danger of not being in the NBA this year or next so he has been productive. Remember the 12 and 5 numbers that I give are non-lottery numbers. If we include lottery selections like I did with West and the Clippers then Rudy’s numbers change to 16 and 9 (14 and 7if you remove Yao Ming and Boki).


    Steve Francis and Eddie Griffin both belong to Rudy T though. Just like Kobe belongs to West. Other teams may have drafted them but it was Rudy T that had enough faith in their skills to pay the price to acquire them when they were still un-signed picks and bring them to Houston. If Vancouver allowed Francis to bully them into a trade then that is their own fault. West said after he took over the Memphis job that if he had drafted Francis then Francis would not have bullied him into a trade. If Francis or Griffin ever played for another NBA team then you might have an argument.

    Good players:
    Francis
    Griffin
    Thomas
    Cat
    Dickerson
    Horry
    Othella (he has avg’d over 13 pts a game and 7 rebounds so he may not be a big time role player but he is not a bust)
    Yao Ming (will be included once he plays in the league)
    Boki (will be included once he plays in the league)

    If you want to remove the 2002 draft for a year that is also fine. If you take away Yao Ming and Boki then Rudy T still has a very good record and it is still very comparable to that of Jerry West. It still shows that organizations like the Clippers have had a tough time finding anything other than marginal talent in the lottery and they have been almost completely ineffective at finding talent outside the early part of the 1st round. While West and Rudy T have effectively used all portions of the draft to find talent.

    Rudy T gets an A+ in my book regardless of what Achebe thinks.

    BTW Achebe,
    Why don’t you come up with a better group of players taken by one organization over the last 11 years. Don’t just talk about how our talent has done nothing and imply that Rudy T has not done a good job. Are you up to the challenge? Find another GM or Coach or Organization that has brought better over all collection talent into the NBA. It should be easy for you to do since almost half of Rudy T’s picks have been made after selection number 40. Come on who has done better? The only rule is that the player must have signed his initial NBA contract and played his first NBA game with that organization.
     
    #22 crash5179, Oct 6, 2002
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2002
  3. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    I don't believe West picked Kobe because he did not.

    West did not draft Kobe!

    I will say he was smart enough to trade for him, but he did not draft him. Kobe was picked like 30 something, surely he could have drafted him himself or traded up to draft him if he was that astute. The fact is nobody wanted to wait on a high schooler at that point.
     
  4. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    Kobe was the 13th pick of the 1996 draft. Charlotte officially picked him but he was drafted for L.A. in exchange for Vlade Divac. Kobe has only played for LAL. Charlotte drafted him with the sole intention of trading him to LAL for Divac. This is not speculation and Kobe was not picked in the second round.
     
  5. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    I'll go for the 13th pick, but just because you say so doesn't convince me West had Charlotte pick him. Like I said, he was smart enough to trade for him. Why didn't he just trade Divac for #13?

    The same goes for Griffin. I don't think we traded for Griffin until way after he was picked. IMO we already had made one of those 1st round picks at least. I don't think there was a "pre-plan" on that one either. I think it happened on the fly... Good decisions though
     
  6. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    The reason he did not just trade Divac for the 13th pick is because he did not care about the 13th pick he only wanted Kobe and if Kobe had not been there at 13 he would not have traded Divac. Same with Griffin, Rudy T picked Jefferson because that is who he was instructed to pick by New Jersey. In order for the Griffin deal to go down N.J. had to get the players that they wanted not just the picks.
     
  7. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    Since you say so... ;)

    What if he, or Griffin for that matter, slipped and that team didn't want to trade? Would West or Rudy look so smart for not trading for the pick then? Prove that's what happened...
     
  8. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    If Griffin or Kobe or Francis had fallen to another team that did not want to trade them then we would not be having this conversation.

    The fact is that the teams that picked those players did not have enough confidence in their ability either as a player or a person to take a chance and sign that player to a contract. Jerry West and Rudy T did have enough faith to do it. Kobe has only been a laker, Francis and Griffin have only been a Rocket.
     
  9. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    That's astute, and perfect logic too... :rolleyes:



    That's a load of crap. Now you're making stuff up. That is NOT a fact. West traded for a Charlotte Hornet, when they drafted him they had his rights. If the Cavs drafted him he would have had to trade for a Cav. The Cavs might not have wanted to. He just as well could have TRADED Divac for Glen Rice. We wouldn't be having this conversation now if that happened?!

    Steve Francis wasn't drafted so we could get get him. He wanted nothing to do with vancouver and they took the best offer. Griffin wasn't either. He fell lower than expected and the Rockets scrambled to see if they could make a deal and did. That was smart, but it wasn't all your "because you say so" preplanning... :rolleyes:
     
  10. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    The Hornets owned his draft rights but he was never a Hornet period. In order for him to be a Hornet he would have had to sign a contract with the Hornets and he did not period. If the Hornets did not think they would get Vlade then they might have drafted someone else.

    The Rockets and Nets were discussing the deal the day before the draft and this is a known fact. Even pops predicted the 3 for 1 swap with New Jersey the day before the draft. It was on the clutchcity front page so no it is not just me making up a load of crap.

    http://www.clutchcity.net/news.cfm?NewsID=707

    http://www.clutchcity.net/news.cfm?NewsID=715

    The second link came out on June 27th, the day before the draft.

    Who was on the Hornets in 96 when the trade for Vlade was made? Glenn Rice, Larry Johnson. Didn’t they just loose Zo to Miami?

    How can you say that those teams had the confidence to sign those players? They did not sign them and that is not debatable. If Charlotte had thought that Kobe would be as good as he is today do you really think that they would have traded him for Vlade? Please. The Nets never wanted Griffin and the Grizzlies didn’t have enough confidence in themselves to handle Francis. Do you really think Francis would have dictated to Jerry West like he did to Vancouver? West answered that question when he took over the Memphis job.

    Bury your head in the sand all you want but Eddie and Steve started their careers with the Rockets and Kobe started his NBA career with the Lakers.
     
  11. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    Wrong. Francis wouldn't play for them period. If West were in charge in Canada he would have said the same thing. He didn't want to play for them and didn't want to play in Canada. What question are you talking about? That makes no sense.

    So someone "predicted" a trade. Yea, that was speculated because it was common knowledge that with three #1's we were trying to trade up. You have three #1's and you move up, that makes you a genius? I think it was a good trade, but for bothe sides, and I still see no proof it was preplanned, by NJ, us, Charlotte, or LA.

    If the pick is your property, then the player is your property signed or not. How else could you trade them? It is a silly point to argue...
     
  12. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    Eddie Griffin was named and so was New Jersey. Coincedence? Why didn't the articles name Shane Battier and Chicago? Now you are reaching.

    The teams owned their draft rights and nothing else. They traded the draft rights and nothing else. Francis was under no obligation to sign with Houston nor was he under contract. He never played one second with the Grizzlies nor did he ever wear a Grizzlies uniform.

    Your reaching now and West did make the statement that if he had drafted Francis for the Grizzlies then Francis would have played with them or not played at all.
     
  13. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    Look, I'm not trying to fight with another senior member but... ;)

    There were plenty of threads and articles about us trying to move up for Battier, especially since we needed a small forward (pre Rice trade)

    Whatever, this is a silly point to argue about. It's a commodity. Why would you "plan" to trade for Griffin if you didn't think he would be your "property" and sign. Ditto for Kobe and Steve. Wearing a uniform is not of importance. Menke Bateer was just a Piston and he didn't wear a uniform.

    So what? Big bad West. West would have made Vancouver even worse than they were? That's genius. Plus, it's easy enough for him to say that at LA, winning championships, making tons of money and basking in the glory. Sitting in Canada with Bibby already on your team and looking just to get something of value would be a totally different scenario. especially with owners breathing down your neck cuz' you're losing millions of dollars... :rolleyes:
     
    #33 ricerocket, Oct 6, 2002
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2002
  14. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    Ricerocket,
    Your arguments are ridiculous. You did not even realize that Kobe was a first round pick you thought he was picked 30th overall so why am I even arguing with you. I show you articles naming Eddie and New Jersey by name the day before the draft talking about a 3 for 1 swap and you still close your eyes. Like Achebe you have missed the point of this thread anyway. Rudy T. and Jerry West both were able to recognize NBA talent before those players ever put on an NBA uniform or played in even one single pre-season NBA game. To imply that Charlotte would have traded Kobe for Vlade if they had really thought that Kobe would turn out like he has is ludicrous.

    For what ever reason Rudy T has managed to identify talent before that player ever laced up a pair of sneakers for an NBA team and he has done it better than most. That is the point of this thread. The facts remain unchanged. I give you the same challenge that I did Achebe, if you can find another organization or GM that has done a better job identifying talent then post them here so we can all compare them to Rudy T.

    The only rules are that the player must have signed his first contract and played his first game for that organization in order to be claimed by that organization. Simple enough?
     
  15. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    You need to answer that...

    No, there were many other valid options being considered at that time as well. My eyes are wide open. You are stuck in the "we are getting Eddie Griffin guaranteed" mode. Go look at that clip they posted about the draft day war room. Rudy and CD were stunned they could get EG. I am happy they did, and I am sure that they talked and considered it a possibility, but it wasn't the certainty you make it out to be.

    No it's not. Many teams want immediate help to win at that time. Charlotte fit that category. LA didn't need immediate help. That's not a stretch on my or Charlotte's part. In fact, Francis coming to Houston was a loss for Vancouver. One they were willing to make because they had Bibby. Certainly they wanted more than we offered, but ours was the best offer.
     
  16. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Contributing Member
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    It's semantics.

    Rudy and co. were able to scout the talents of Francis and Griffin, and took the gamble on acquiring them with 0 NBA seasoning, just like West nabbed Kobe out of high school.

    The point of the thread, IMO, is looking at the Rockets' ability to scout talent out of college (and high school).

    Bottom line: You can use Kobe as evidence of West's eye for talent. You can't use Kobe to prove that Charlotte's management knew what it was doing.

    Francis and Griffin are products of the Rockets' scouting ability, not the Grizzlies' and Nets'.
     
  17. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    I disagree. The Nets had K. Martin and the Grizz had Bibby. They took the best player available with the intention of getting the most out of him or their existing players. In Charlotte, I think they did the same with the intention on getting the best center they could to help them immediately. That's scouting on the Grizz and Net's part too.
     
  18. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    You continue to miss the point of the thread of the thread find another GM or organization that has brought more talent to the NBA. The rules are simple.
     
  19. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    "Rudy T’s non lottery draft selections" = "the point of the thread of the thread find another GM or organization that has brought more talent to the NBA" :confused: OK, Rudy and the Rockets are the greatest... :D
     
  20. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    I can give you Griffin, only because there is ambiguity about him. But Francis was a clear winner, as clear as Jason Williams this year. He was a top three pick by all standards, so it wasn't magical scouting, just like Yao and Hakeem were obvious picks.

    Teams show off their scouting not by making the conventional wisdom picks, but by the picks that appear unexpected and turn to gold. Some of it's luck, some of it is growing the talent, and some of it's scouting.

    I don't think Rudy or CD are good scouts...what they are good at is taking a player and helping them reach their potential. That's not a small thing, in fact, it may be more valuable then good scouting considering the number of players who are talented and turn into disappointments (Vin Baker, Shawn Kemp, and so on).

    One of the things Rocket Alumni are known for is professionalism and a hard nosed work attitude. Horry, Cassel, Elie, Othella, Dickerson, are all classy individuals. Maybe that's why they are still in the league and significant contribitutors to their teams.

    But weathers it's four or five....or even six out of what twenty something? Over 11 years? I think that is at best average.

     

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