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Rudy T’s non lottery draft selections

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by crash5179, Oct 5, 2002.

  1. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    2002
    15. Bostjan Nachbar –
    38. Tito Maddox -

    2001
    34. Terence Morris -

    2000
    15. Jason Collier -
    31. Dan Langhi -

    1999
    22. Kenny Thomas -
    44. Tyrone Washington
    50. Venson Hamilton

    1998
    14. Michael Dickerson -
    16. Bryce Drew -
    18. Mirsad Turckan
    41. Cuttino Mobley -

    1997
    24. Rodrick Rhodes
    30. Serge Zwikker

    1996
    30. Othella Harrington -
    42. Randy Livingston -
    50. Terrell Bell

    1995
    41. Erik Meek

    1994.
    53. Albert Burditt

    1993.
    24. Sam Cassell -
    33. Eric Riley
    46. Richard Petruska
    51. Marcelo Nicola

    1992
    41. Ronald Jones

    These are strictly non-lottery picks and do not include Steve Francis, Eddie Griffin or Robert Horry. BTW I consider Francis, Griffin, Horry and Morris all Rudy T picks even though Horry is the only pick that actually belonged to us. The reason for this is because Rudy traded for these picks before they ever played for another team and all but Francis were draft day trades. Griffin and Morris were actually picked for Houston. I don't know how many players might have been picked for other teams Marcelo Nicola, Terrell Bell? I never even heard of some of the guys before.

    Of all the picks only 7 were first round picks. 3 of the 1st round picks were in one year and 3 were picked at 22 or later. In eleven years Rudy T has only had 4 non-lottery first round picks at 18 or below. In the eleven years Rudy T has had 16 picks in the second round and of those picks 10 were picked at either #40 or later. So here is a break down.

    Non lottery picks – 24
    1st rounders – 7
    - 4 mid and 3 late
    2nd rounders – 17
    - 5 before pick 40 and 12 after pick 40

    12 Players still in the NBA
    - 5 are second round picks (2 were picked after spot 40)
    - 2 are currently all star caliber players ( Cat and Cassell )
    - 5 have had very good pro careers ( Othella, Cat, Cassell, Kenny and Dickerson ). Boki will be the 6th.

    Summery:
    In 11 years half of the Rockets non-lottery picks have come after pick number 40. The Rockets only have 4 lottery picks in that same time so that is still 12 out of 28 picks after pick number 40. Almost ½ of the Rockets non-lottery picks are still playing in the NBA today. Considering where most of their draft picks have come from I think that is amazing. Living in Dallas I have seen lottery pick after lottery pick squandered. Does anyone think that Doug Smith or Randy White lasted very long in the NBA?

    Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Othella Harington, Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, Kenny Thomas, Michael Dickerson, Eddie Griffin, Yao Ming and Bostjan Nochbar are picks that are as good as it gets during an 11-year period. I don’t think there is another GM or Coach in the league that has produced that many high quality players in the league in an 11-year period including Jerry West.
     
  2. CoPilot

    CoPilot Member

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    When your the best YOUR THE BEST and this confirms that Rudy T is 1 of the best


    I would love to see what Phil Jackson has done in the draft over time like you just showed what Rudy T did...That would be a great comparison........:cool:


    Very nice job crash
     
  3. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    Jackson hasn't done squat. Jerry West did the drafting and trading. I don't think he did much at Chicago either. That was Kruse and company.
     
  4. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    As I recall doing a survey like this before, I think Phoenix is the only team remotely as successful as the Rockets.

    Also, I think it is very important to include the lottery picks. Those are THE most important, afterall. Rudy and CD are impeccable on their big picks. It isn't a sure thing to always score on those lottery picks. Francis could easily have ended up a headcase like Marbury who is too selfish. Griffin was a big risk for 3 Picks in a good draft. Horry was a perfect pick, and we won 2 championships due greatly to his clutchness and ability play SF and PF.

    Further, I think you should include non-drafted players, too, and draft day trades.

    Moochie Norris
    Scottie Brooks (got for a 2nd rock pick in the Horry draft)
    Oscar Torres
    One of the 3 Griffin picks for the 2000 draft trade
     
  5. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    No doubt about this statement. Just ask teams like the Clippers and Mavs how easy it is to consistantly screw up lottery picks.

    Rudy T and CD have recieved Horry, Francis, Eddie and Yao through the lottery. That is 4 for 4 in lottery picks. Its kind of hard to argue with that success.

    BTW including the lottery picks the Rockets have:

    16 out of 28 players drafted still in the NBA since 1992

    Thats better than a 50% success rate with very few high draft picks. Amazing.
     
    #5 crash5179, Oct 5, 2002
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2002
  6. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    The Jerry West picks:

    2002
    4. Drew Gooden -
    32. Robert Archibald (any kin to Nate?) -
    48. Chris Owens -

    2001
    No Picks

    2000
    29. Mark Madson -

    1999
    23. Devean George -
    30. John Celestand -

    1998
    26. Sam Jacobson
    31. Ruben Patterson -
    45. Toby Bailey -

    1997
    52. DeJuan Wheat
    54. Paul Rogers

    1996
    13. Kobe Bryant -
    24. Derek Fisher -

    1995
    37. Frankie King

    1994
    10. Eddie Jones -

    1993
    12. George Lynch -
    37. Nick Van Exel -

    1992
    15. Anthony Peeler -
    36. Duane Cooper

    Jerry West is widely considered the best GM in the business. I’m not fixing to say otherwise but here is a comparison of his talent evaluation and that of our own Rudy T.

    West has had 19 draft selections since 1992 including his 3 picks this year. Of his 19 picks 14 still play in the NBA. That is a very good percentage. Of his 19 picks almost half were first round picks. Of his 9 first round picks almost half were lottery picks. Here is a break down of his picks:

    19 Picks
    9 first round picks
    - 4 lottery
    10 second round picks
    - 4 picked after number 40
    14 picks still in the NBA
    - 4 lottery picks (Lynch, Jones, Bryant and Gooden)
    - 6 2nd round picks ( two of his second round picks were from this year)

    Difference Makers 4
    Nick Van Exel
    Eddie Jones
    Kobe Bryant
    Drew Gooden (possible)

    Big time role players 1
    Ruben Patterson

    Normal role players 3
    Anthony Peeler
    George Lynch
    Derek Fisher

    Why are they still in the league? 4
    Toby Bailey
    John Celestand
    Devean George
    Mark Madson

    A break down of Rudy T’s picks:

    28 picks
    11 first rounders
    - 4 lottery picks
    17 second rounders
    - 12 picked after number 40
    16 picks still in the NBA
    - 4 lottery picks
    - 5 2nd rounders (two picked after number 40)

    Difference Makers 7
    Sam Cassell
    Robert Horry (I struggled with this one but who has hit more big shots in the play-offs and finals during the last decade?)
    Cuttino Mobley
    Steve Francis
    Eddie Griffin (possible)
    Yao Ming (possible)
    Bostjan Nachbar (possible)

    Big time role players 3
    Othella Harrington
    Michael Dickerson
    Kenny Thomas

    Normal role players
    ?

    Why are they still in the league 5
    Bryce Drew
    Terence Morris (I think he will advance to the next category this year)
    Randy Livingston
    Jason Collier
    Dan Langhi

    I think this gives Rudy T a very favorable comparison to Jerry West the best talent evaluator in the league. So would you rather have Rudy T’s picks or Jerry West’s picks. Jerry has the best of them all with Kobe but after that I think the board tilts heavily towards Rudy T.
     
  7. Achebe

    Achebe Contributing Member

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    Only one of those players has done anything so far... and he is doing it for the Lakers. Let's not call the hand yet...
     
  8. ricerocket

    ricerocket Member

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    West did not pick Kobe Bryant... :p
     
  9. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    As I recall he traded Vlade to Charlotte for the Kobe pick. As far as I am concerned that is as good as making the pick.

    No different than Rudy T trading three picks for Eddie Griffin or sending Dickerson and Othella for Francis. He did not officially make those picks but he did aquire them and they have played for only one team.
     
  10. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    So you think Horry more talented than Francis, Eddie or Yao Ming?

    What would Horry have done with out Dream or Shaq?

    This thread is not about who has one more championships or who has played in more big games it is about talent evaluation. Unless you are calling Francis, Eddie and Yao a bust then what is your point.

    Doug Smith and Randy White are examples of lottery pick failures so I guess that is where you are placing Francis, Eddie and Yao.

    Do you understand what this thread is about?
     
  11. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    A lot of the credit goes to Joe Ash, their head scout. I've read that he is one of the most highly rated scouts in the NBA. Also, CD has helped to give shots in the NBA to players like Avery Johnson and David Wesley even when they weren't Rockets.

    Probably most of the reason why Rudy is such a good evaluator of talent is because he worked his way up through the organization heirarchy including a long stint as a scout and years as an assistant. For a long time, his ONLY job was talent evaluation.

    That had to make a significant difference.
     
  12. Achebe

    Achebe Contributing Member

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    Do you understand the notion of 'the jury still being out'. You label something a success after something occurs.

    "as good as it gets during an 11 year period. I don't think there is another GM or coach in the league that has produced that many high quality players".
    Yet Yao Ming and Bostjan Nachbar haven't played a game. Eddie Griffin is quite promising, but you want to call your hand now??

    Let the players develop and come back to this when they have some years under their belts. Right now you're being premie.
     
  13. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    The Clippers (Not sure how many years Elgin Baylor has been GM)

    2002
    8. Chris Wilcox -
    12. Melvin Ely -
    41. Mario Kasun

    2001
    no pick

    2000
    3. Darius Miles -
    18. Quentin Richardson -
    30. Marco Jaric -

    1999
    4. Lamar Odom -
    31. Rico Hill

    1998
    1. Michael Olowokandi -
    22. Brian Skinner -

    1997
    14. Maurice Taylor -

    1996
    7. Lorenzen Wright -
    36. Doron Sheffer

    1995
    15. Brent Barry -
    53. Constantin Popa

    1994
    7. Lamond Murray-
    25. Greg Minor

    1993
    13. Terry Dehere
    53. Leonard White

    1992
    16. Randy Woods
    25. Elmore Spencer

    OK here is the break down:

    21 total picks
    15 1st round picks
    - 8 lottery picks
    6 2nd round picks
    - 3 picks after #40
    12 picks remaining in the NBA
    - only 1 second rounder picked by the Clipps is still in the league and that is Marko Jaric, he is in his first year.
    Difference Makers
    Lamar Odom

    Big Time Role Players
    Chris Wilcox (possible)
    Melvin Ely (possible)
    Maurice Taylor
    Brent Barry
    Lamond Murray

    normal role players
    Darius Miles
    Quentin Richardson
    Michael Olowokandi
    Lorenzen Wright

    The Clippers organization have selected in the lottery 8 times in the last eleven years with out much to show for it. With 8 lottery picks you would have expected a little more in upper echelon of talent. The one thing that really jumps out at me is the fact that the Clippers do not keep their second round picks and when they do they never manage to get someone of NBA quality. Both Jerry West and Rudy T have several players selected in the second round still playing in the NBA and both have selected all star caliber players in the second round. The Clipps have twice as many lottery selections on their team as Rudy T and yet Rudy T has done so much more with the picks.

    The Clipps organization and Jerry West are two opposite ends of the spectrum and its easy to see who Rudy T compares to better.

    Big thanks to Rudy T, CD and John Ash (thanks for the name Jeff) for doing such a good job of getting talent on our team. It is so much better to have an organization like the Rockets to cheer for instead of one like the Clippers.
     
  14. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    The jury is not out on Francis. He was ROY and made the all star team last year. Regardless if we win a championship or not he is a lottery talent. Eddie's talent was obvious to me last year The only question regarding him is how good he will get not if he is a successful lottery selection. I'll give you Yao for now but for you to say that Horry is the only one that has earned his lottery selection is ludicrous.



    We are talking talent. Period. Eddies talent is evident. Francis, Cassell, Cat etc...all proven talent. Yao and Boki are the only ones with anything to prove as far as talent. It is obvious that you do not understand the point of this thread.

    According to your rules Vince Carter, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber, Dirk Nowitzki and a host of others are not deserving of their lottery selection and have not proven they were good selections because they have not won the big one as Horry has. Please.

    The point of this thread is evaluating talent in players that have not played in the NBA yet. Did you not recognize Eddies talent last year? Or Steve's? Gimme a break. BTW there are a bunch of players on the list drafted by Rudy T that have developed and are in their prime so stop thinking this thread is just about Yao Ming, Eddie Griffin and Bostjan Nachbar when it is really about Rudy and 11 years of history.
     
  15. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    I believe that he directed the Hornets to pick Kobe for the Lakers. I saw West interviewed about this recently. He had worked out Kobe and was convinced that he was the best player in the draft. Everyone passed on him as they werer wont to do in those days and Charlotte picked him through pre-arrangement for the Lakers.
     
  16. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    crash5179 is on fire!

    step aside.
     
  17. Jrazz

    Jrazz Member

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    Great thread. Thanks for the work.
     
  18. T-2

    T-2 Contributing Member

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    Fun read crash, though my minor quibble is I would put Derek Fisher at big-time role player. In LA's dream run two years ago, Fisher would make doubling defenses pay with clutch threes. Also, I consider Othella Harrington a normal role player and I feel like you undervalued the Clips' normal role players a bit.

    Still, I definitely agree with the gist of the thread, carry on...
     
  19. NewYorker

    NewYorker Ghost of Clutch Fans

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    I have to agree with you. Futhermore, it should be noted that both Francis and Griffin were acquired by trade and were not draft picks by Houston. They were the picks of the Grizzlys and Nets respectively. Francis was a no-brainer and Houston got him because Francis refused to play in vancouver....Griffin is more sketchy...I think NJ was foolish to make such a trade.

    Othella Harrington has some decent years, but he's a guy who average less then 5 rebs and 8 pts last year...so I'm not going to call him a significant role player on a team that deperately needs big men (believe me, the Knicks have no inside muscle, especially without camby...and they will start kurt thomas over othella...which either means othella is not that good or chaney is a moron...and chaney is a moron as we found out from his tenure as rockets head coach).

    By the way, does anyone know that Chaney had the gall to claim that he built Houston's championship team and that Rudy was just there to reap the rewards of his labor? This guy is something else.

    Anyway, so here's what I got as good players Rudy has picked:

    Horry
    Cassell
    Mobley
    Dickerson

    Ming and Nachbar are not included until they at least play a season.

    4 players, not 12. I don't think Houston Scouting is all that great, at least not when it comes to Rudy T and CD.

    But in fairness, what Rudy T does so well is turn players into professionals. I don't think Mobley, Cassel, Horry, or Dickerson would have become anything with other coaches on other teams. I think it's a testiment to Rudy that these guys developed. Rudy knows how to motivate players and encourage them, and that's his greatest ability and what makes him unique.

    Jerry West can pick em, but Rudy T makes them.

     
  20. Achebe

    Achebe Contributing Member

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    NewYorker is on fire!

    step aside.
     

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