Rudy Gay: Staying with Losing Team "Is Important to Me"

Hmm I hadn't really considered your point regarding the leadership role. I suppose Gay would've been more mature had he gone here instead of the Grizz. He'd certainly be a better defender, and probably be a better player overall if he was coached right. I still don't buy him getting 19 pts off the bench though Unless Adelman falls in love with him and limits both Battier and Artest's minutes. But then again we wouldn't have Battier would we? He might average 19 pts, but as a starter not as a bench

 

Who in OKC is showing Kevin Durant? Who on the Pacers showed Danny Granger? Who on the Blazers showed Brandon Roy (great teachers like Darius Miles or Zach Randolph)? Who showed Wade his first 2 years in Miami? Chris Paul on the Hornets? Derrick Rose in Chicago? How many more should I mention? A person has to have the work ethic and dominant mentality WITHIN THEMSELVES. Most (if not all) superstars didn't have a group of veterans on the same team to show them.

Comparing Gay to Tayshaun Prince is a good illustration. That's about the level where he belongs. Gay is better on offense while Prince is a more complete player.

 

That's what I mean is that he'd have more guys to go to. Wafer said being around Kobe helped his game, and Wade and Lebron say the same thing. I think if Gay were here now (with Battier and Artest) he'd learn a lot about hard work and defense. Plus he'd have his buddy on the team in Lowry. I honestly don't know what he'd learn from Tmac...actually i'd keep him away from Tmac. I just think he'd fit perfectly with our second unit who gets up and down the floor.

But I'm happy we traded him for Battier in the end, all i'm really saying is i'd happily replace him with Wafer. The ceiling for Wafer I feel is being a good role player in the NBA the ceiling for Gay is much higher and the Grizz are just a wasteland. One all-star in their history and no playoff wins...NONE...(which is quite funny actually.) Wouldn't be surprised if Mayo, Gay, and Gasol are playing somewhere else by 2015 and the Grizz are rebuilding again cutting cost and mocing to another city.

Who knows, maybe the Grizz will gift-wrap us another one of their players

It seems like Rick wants a athlethic two-guard to come off the bench for us. That's why we signed White. I feel like he's the Wafer insurance should Von go down or should Von play horribly we have James White who may be able to do all those things Von does. Also I expect some crappy team to overpay for Wafer...well maybe not in this economy but we'll see how Von approaches Free Agency.

 

Durant is one of those special players, same for Wade and Chris Paul. Those guys are great talents. They came into the league playing at a high level.

Granger though did have Peja there (a former MVP candidate and all-star). Granger is a guy who has been getting better year by year with the experience he's learning. Those other guys like Chris Paul and Durant...they just got it.

Also remember the Blazers wanted to bring in Shaq speciifically to help out Oden? Players learning under other players helps. It isn't going to help guys like Chirs Paul or Durant, these guys already have it, Rose too. That's the difference between drafting Chris Paul or a Raymond Felton. Felton needs more experience and someone to help him out...Chris Paul just comes in the L and tears it apart because he's that talented.

Also look at what the Rox did with Yao, Yao practicing with legendary Centers and Dwight received the same treatment.

If Gay came here to learn under Artest and Battier I feel he'd really reach his potential...but I agree with trading Battier for him.

Also you always hear first time all-stars say how much they learned just by going to the game, being the the league's best. They see a example of how it is supposed to be done.

 

Granger didn't learn anything from Peja, who was only briefly with the Pacers and never taught anybody anything. Don't EVEN get me started on Peja again.

I don't remember the Blazers ever wanting to bring in Shaq. Where did you hear that?

What legendary centers did Yao and Howard practice with? Are you referring to the over-publicized, one-time photo op he did with Hakeem 3-4 years ago? Seriously, that's all it was. I have no clue on your reference to Howard. Since you apparently intend to reference off-season activities, what has stopped Rudy Gay from pursuing that avenue? In his younger days, Reggie Miller used to work out in the off-season with Magic Johnson in Los Angeles and it helped him tremendously. Maybe Gay needs to take the initiative and latch on to somebody in the summer. It's up to him.

If Gay ever makes it to the All-Star game, I suppose then he can start learning what he should already know. But IMO, the NBA All-Star is nothing more than a bunch of prancing around, showboating and pomp with very little seriousness. I'm not sure there is much learning going on. First time All-Stars always kiss-up with kinds words, etc in a show of humility.

 

We already have a nice replacement for Wafer next season if somebody signs him for a crazy amount: Matt Barnes. You want streaky? Check. You want athletic? Check. You want all around offensive skills? Check. You want minimum salary? Check check check. I doubt he'd want to stay in PHX if they miss the playoffs, so we can probably welcome him with open arms.

And Grizz can't move till 2020. They have a leasing agreement with their arena till that year.

 

Yao learned from CD, then Thibs then CD again after JVG was booted out. But you're right, when it comes to perimeter players stars usually learn on their own.

 

Rumor awhile ago that Shaq was headed to the Blazers and pretty much didn't like the idea of being a mentor to Oden.

Yao learned nothing from Ewing and has learned nothing from Deke? Two Hall of Fame Centers? Dwight has learned nothing from Ewing either? Even though Dwight said himself that Ewing has helped him tremendously? It is up to Gay to do that himself but its more natural when you're on that team isn't it?

You're now making it seem like Players learn nothing from other players yet it happens all the time in sports.

 

Yeah Barnes is actually a good pick up to replace Wafer.

Didn't know that. I feel bad for that franchise yet that team was able to beat us twice this year...

 

I don't think Ewing taught Yao anything. Its just a conspiracy theory of mine, but I believe Ewing is borderline racist so didn't teach Yao all he could have, or maybe he thought Yao was a big stiff so didn't teach him properly. Either way, my belief is all credit for Yao's development comes from CD and Thibs. I don't remember Yao crediting Ewing for teaching him anything as well.

 

But couldn't you say that Gay had a pretty good company of veterans to learn from in his first season in the league --> Pau Gasol and Mike Miller are NBA veterans who certainly have some experience playing on a winning team (see Memphis Grizzlies 2005 for example?)

Don't forget long time NBA stalwarts like Eddie Jones or Damon Stoudamire or even Chucky Atkins.

The Grizzlies were 49-33 in 2005-2006 - essentially the same core squad was together in 2006-2007 (Gay's first season) - so the veterans in Jones, Stoudamire, Gasol and Miller knew something about winning. Let's not forget that Jones and Miller play the same position as Gay and could certainly have taught the young man a thing or 2.

Gay had a standout stats year in 2007-2008 - but this season with a bit more attention from the defence, and another scorer to share the ball with, his stats have dipped across the board. In fact everything is down except his free throw attempts and makes (however overall FT% is down).

I don't think players magically learn to play defence - Gay was under a defensive minded coach in his rookie year (Memphis had a better defence than Houston the year prior) - and had a defensive minded GF in Jones to observe and learn from. You can't just say that he'll magically become a good defender - it's not ALL about athleticism.

I don't see him as a 'top tier' player, nor as any guarantee of being a future 'top tier player'. He's a full step behind his contemporaries like Danny Granger, Paul, Durant, Roy etc - he's still an excellent prospect for the future, but is he a a lock to go down as a better player than Ricky Davis? Tough to say for sure (and I don't mean the Ricky Davis of the last 2 seasons...)

 

I guess Yao has never credited Ewing...now that I think about it lol...

But Ewing does help Dwight. I wish I could find the quote from Dwigh saying as much. That Basically Ewing made him a better defender. Someone needs to help his post game offensively though...

 

Looks like I wrong about the lease. The Grizz are only on the hook until 2018. Anaheim Grizzlies anyone?

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/feb/29/grizzlies-are-not-leaving/

 

OK. Your said Rudy Gay needed better teammates to go to another level. I'm saying that isn't true.

Regarding Yao: Like a lot of Rockets fans, I'm not sure what he learned from Ewing, who was here only because of his relationship with JVG. Their games and physiques were/are very different from each other. Put me in the camp that thinks Ewing was close to worthless to Yao. I think Jack Sikma has a LOT more to teach Yao than Patrick Ewing. On defense, I'm sure Yao has learned a thing or two from Deke. On offense, close to zero. I can't comment much on Howard & Ewing but the same thing applies: Their games are totally different from each other. The two do seem to have a good relationship with each other.

I'm not implying in the slightest that players don't learn from players. I'm saying that star players don't need great teammates to be the best they can be. You can't teach a personality type. Period. And personal relationships in the NBA aren't limited by what team you are on. My point is Rudy Gay can learn as much as he wants and it's on him to do so. Forget who his teammates are. He should buddy up to some veterans around the NBA and take it from there (if this is supposedly what's holding him back).

 

Those are some solid veterans but they went from being respectable to a garbage team instantly, then that team was blown up. Gay hasn't been in a winning environment that's why I mentioned good teams earlier like the Celts and Spurs and Lakers. He had some guys who could help him out like Mike Miller and Damon...but at the same time they were losing games so I don't know what he learned from those guys if anything. It's hard to learn from a guy when he's not doing so well currently either.

I don't think he's a top tier player either, and he's not magically going to get better on defense, but gradually playing within a good defense can make him better. Because first thing is he's going to have to take responsibility for his mistakes as to not let down his teammates...who take defense very seriously. then he has two of the bets Perimeter defenders in the NBA to go to. Wafer at first was a really bad defender, but he's improved.

I wouldn't even compare him to those other guys that's why I always mention that I like him coming off the Bench, I never said I liked him starting over Battier or Artest. Just that I would love this guy playing a scoring role for us over Wafer. A role similar to Jason Terry where he can come off the bench and scorch some people. Rockets really don't have that as Wafer is too streaky and we thought we'd like Artest coming off the bench but as things turn out with Tmac and whatnot that hasn't worked out.

 

Ok fair enough but remember i'm not saying Rudy Gay is a future star player. I used to think that but now I don't. You're right about personality type, some guys just don't have the desire to be the very best...Tmac and Kobe prove that. They both have similar skillsets but one guy wants it more than the other and one guy almost seems content with what he has. I just like him coming off the bench and being a premier role player. I agree that star players don't need others to learn from, but Gay isn't a star player I think he does need it.

Like a Tayshaun who never was a star player and Detroit is learning that the hard way now thinking they could build their team around Prince and Stuckey. Tayshaun is nearly similar in that he's a good player but he's a premier role player like Marion or Jason Terry has been. I don't think he can be a star player on the level of Roy and Durant and those other guys. I think though if say we were to trade Hayes and some other player for him or something(just a example) and he'd come here with guys like Artest and Battier that he'd become one heck of a player for us coming off the bench.

I never say he should be starting on our team, not over Battier or Artest. But coming off the bench and giving other teams second unit problems and getting up and down the floor with Lowry and Landry, I like that situation and I feel he'd be more consistent off the bench then Wafer has been.

I think whats holding him back is he doesn't seem motivated. Everytime I see the Grizz play it seems he just doesn't care if they win or lose by how he plays so loose at times. Guys like Mayo and Gasol play with more of a purpose to help their team win and Gay is just kinda out there shooting shots.

 

It's not right to compare Gay and Gasol since they are in completely diferent positions.

Gay has more talent than Gasol, I know that. The times we've played the grizzs i havent seen Gasol have much of an impast a gay but maybe thats because he's gaurded by a 7'6 C.

I don't follow the Grizzlies but based on highlights nad the times we've played them, i've seen more from gay.

To Iggy is not a franchise player is ludricous since he' carrying his team and has them winning, without Brand. But you've seemed to figure out your own mistake soo i'll drop that.

 

Same page as you except if Rudy Gay were here with Battier, Gay would definitely be in the starting lineup. Shane has fallen off so much this season.

Your last paragraph is totally on the money. Gay has bursts of passion during games every now and then but he is not an intense person (at least while playing basketball).

 

That's why I said Gay is a more talented version of Green. Maybe Gay can be salvaged under the right circumstances but he's got the same issues Green has had, maybe to a lesser degree since Green has already bounced around a few teams already

The Tayshaun Prince comparison has one caveat and it's the expectations of teams when they drafted Prince and Gay respectively. IMO Detroit wasn't expecting as much from Prince as when the Grizz drafted Gay. The Grizz wanted to build around Gay and Jerry West had high expectations for him. The Pistons were just hoping Prince could be a good bench player/project under Rick Carlisle. It was in the playoffs he made a name for himself and then flourished under Larry Brown. Now that Prince elevated to himself to a premier role player and the expectations of Gay from the Grizz has lowered somewhat to where they hope Gay can be a Prince type of role player, then the comparison would fit. To me though that's more of a knock on Gay who's supposed ceiling was higher then Prince.

The Grizz/Jerry West were probably hoping Gay's upside would be a Carmelo Anthony type (albeit a lesser version) to build around. Expectations have probably lowered just a tad bit.