Yes but I'm not sold on them just yet. Like I said before, this team lacks mental toughness they had a breakdown at the end of the season and even the owner called them out. Then Kirelenko has that drama in front of the media. I don't see how they would stand to something like what has happened to Phoenix where they have been pretty much put in a corner by the Spurs and their cheap shots and add to the fact league punishes them which might have just cost them the series. Houston and Golden State were rookie opponents but Phoenix and San Antonio especially are playoff veteran who know how to play under pressure and overcome adversity. If you use the Houston series as a barometer and realize that we took them to the final moments of a game 7 even though we shot horribly throughout the series like 30 percent. That will not cut it against the Spurs or Suns so I'm marking Utah out of the next round.
That ghettocheeze was speculating that Utah wouldn't have won against Dallas, and I only refuted that by assuming the Rockets wouldn't have made the NBA Finals in '94 without the Nuggets help. It was the reverse logic you originally replied to, and I just was saying everything that is unknown is always going to be an assumption. Well since Houston really took it to the Jazz in '94, I don't think I could. However in 1995, if time travel were possible, I'd go back and tell Sloan to sit Benoit. I still fall to the ground in convulsions whenever I hear "Benoit for three..." It isn't like that for me, unless it's the game I know they lost. I've watched Jazz playoff games from 1988, when they took the defending champion Lakers to 7 games. I know they eventually lost the series, but it doesn't take away from me watching the unbelievable performance of John Stockton. Of course for Rocket fans it's difficult to ever live up to the 1994 and 1995 seasons. It always will be, since that is the pinnacle of sports success. Yet I don't know what it's like to see my team win the championship, so it isn't as if I ever have to live up to that feeling again. I'm guessing if Utah gets over the hump and actually wins the World Championship, anything less over the years would probably be disappointing. Hell after the '98 Finals, just making the playoffs didn't cut it for me and most Jazz fans. We wanted a return trip and never got it. However time off from the playoffs has made it easier to accept just advancing to the Western Conference finals. Mostly because it's a good first step and I know not many teams go from rebuilding, to winning the World Championship their first trip to the playoffs. As for Kings and Dallas fans, I'm guessing they were very content getting that far and never winning the whole thing. Obviously not as content as they would be if they had won, but damn near close. The Kings sucked for so long that when they finally became relevant in the NBA and made deep playoff runs, it was nearly enough for their fans. Granted not reaching the NBA Finals probably hurt more for them than Dallas making the NBA Finals and blowing a 2-0 lead to the Heat because I think a team IS elite when they make the Finals, even if it ends in a loss. The Kings problem was that they could never advance beyond the conference finals and though I don't think that ever takes away from what they did, I'm sure Kings fans pine for what could have been. But so do Jazz fans. I mean I still think of what might had happened if Utah hadn't swept the Lakers in 1998. I think most fans believe Utah was just taken out of their game by the 10 day layoff between the WCF and the NBA Finals. It took Utah 4 games to get into their groove and by the time they did, they were down 3-1 to the Bulls. Look at the Warriors and what they've done this season. All they did was make the second round of the NBA Playoffs and you would have thought they won the entire thing. Oakland was dominated by Warrior Fever and I doubt you'd find one Warrior fan that said this season was ultimately a failure because they ended short of winning the NBA Championship. And that's the bottom line, it's all about expectations. For me, I didn't expect Utah to win the championship THIS season, not at the start. So to be 4 games away from playing in the NBA Finals is truly exciting. Of course now my expectations are higher and I expect better things in the coming years. Anything less will be a disappointment. But do you think Clipper fans think any less of what they did last year? I highly doubt it. They'll look back at their series with the Suns as one of the better moments in franchise history and probably ignore the fact the very next year they flopped. It doesn't mean they should just accept falling off the NBA map, because they shouldn't, but what the Clippers did this season really shouldn't take away from what they did last season. Likewise, Dallas had a great run that ended short of an NBA Championship, but they at least made the NBA Finals. Yeah they were runner-up, but to get to that point is an accomplishment, especially when you realize so many teams haven't made the NBA Finals in the past 20 years. I think your philosophy is far different than most in the NBA world. Warrior fans are disappointed they lost to Utah, but I doubt they're disappointed in their season as a whole. I don't buy that only one fan base can be satisfied with the season outcome. Are you telling me you wouldn't be happy if the Rockets had beaten Utah in 7, beat the Warriors in 6, stunned the Spurs in 6, then lost to Detroit in 7 on a shot as time expired? You would automatically look at that season as a failure, since the Rockets didn't win the whole thing? Oh I'm sure the pain of losing would be unbearable, but I doubt it'd hinder your ability to look back fondly on that season a month, two months or years down the line. Expectations are the key here. Dallas fans have a right to be pissed and disappointed because they had the best record in the NBA this year, the MVP and what many thought the best chance to win the whole thing. Utah fans? Not so much, because most didn't think they could get out of the first round.
They lack mental toughness? Maybe at the end of the season, but not right now. How many teams with zero mental toughness go on the road and win a game 7? How many teams with no mental toughness go in and beat the Warriors on what many called the toughest home court in the NBA playoffs? If anything, Utah had the mental edge over both the Rockets and Warriors. They're not weak, soft or held hostage by their emotions. They've been backed into a corner (down 0-2 to Houston, then 3-2, before winning in 7 -- only the second team in NBA history to do that) and then forced to play one of the hottest teams in the league and they not only won, but won 4-1. That was the same team that defeated the defending Western Conference champions with ease. The Mavs lacked mental toughness, if anything, Utah is one of the most mentally tough teams left in the playoffs. That's been proven by their ability to bounce back when most everyone wrote them off, and then actually beat a team they were picked to beat.
Are you kidding? That would be awful. To come that close, and then to lose it all in the final second? Even if you think your team exceeded expectations by making it to the finals, there still there, and they may never got that chance again. They don't have two trophy presentations when it is over. There isn't a parade in the city of the team that loses. The goal is to win a championship. I'm not going to think my team "sucks" if they were to lose in the finals, but it would be extremely disappointing.
So you're saying the feeling would be the exact same as losing to Utah in the first round? I guess I just don't see it. Yeah the goal is to win a championship, but let's not fool ourselves here, not many teams are built for championship runs. Do you think the Warriors went into this season expecting to win the championship? Utah fans? Charlotte Bobcat fans? I'm guessing not and hell if Charlotte MADE the playoffs, only to get swept in the first round, it'd feel a helluva lot better than winning only 25 games.
Yes, let's not... The only thing that matters is winning a championship. If your team ever gets to win one maybe you will understand.
Then you must not enjoy being a Rockets fan, eh? Since it's been what, 13 years now and they haven't come close? You're setting the bar awfully high for sports enjoyment. Me? I'm enjoyin' this great run by Utah, even if it does end short of the championship.
No, I enjoy it. It's just sports... But it must be hard never knowing what winning one is like. Coming close so many times, only to fail. Or maybe it's not...which is why you can set the bar so low.
So you must be a longtime Jazz fan. I wish someone could capture the last 5 minutes of that game starting with the 3 pointer (from Stockton?) that put you guys up by 7. I thought it was over like most Rockets fans. That sequence shows you right there how fragile winning a championship can be. If Benoit doesn't kill you guys, there wouldn't have been a 2nd championship for us. The Rockets should have voted him a playoff share and given him one of their rings. And every Rockets fan from that time (that remembers how it was) will admit to being overjoyed at the Nuggets taking out the Sonics in 1994. To this day I don't think we would have beaten the Sonics. Even admitting that, it doesn't subtract from the championship because it was a complete season and you have to play the games.
Well that's your problem, you're not a realistic fan! I just realize that no team in pro sports history has won the championship EVERY YEAR. With that in mind, I expect this Utah team to compete for the championship in the coming years and if they fail, I will be disappointed.
Fisher has a history of stepping up his game in the playoffs. Refer to the Lakers 2nd title run (I believe), when he was making an insane amount of his shots. As our recent series shows, role players making their shots makes all the difference in the world.
You would like to see one in your lifetime though, huh? Anyway, you can judge success on your own terms, however you want. But again, the only thing that matters is winning a championship. There have been a lot of young teams that have "gone deep" in the playoffs. I'm sure after the '95 finals, people thought the Orlando Magic were on the brink of a dynasty. But they never won. Every team in the Western Conference playoffs this season can look to next year, and legitimately believe they can make their own "deep run..." So what? The only thing that matters is winning a championship. There have been a lot of teams that believe they are going to "contend for a championship in the years ahead," yet only eight cities since 1980 have seen their team win the whole thing. Everyone has hope, however. That's why you look forward to next year. Does losing in the conference finals or finals mean you can't enjoy what led up to that? Of course not... It's not like you can take back the joy you felt in those winning moments leading up to the ultimate failure... but that doesn't mean the season was a success. Championship = success Nothing else matters... You can lower expectations all you want, but when people look at a franchise, they judge them by how many titles they have. Not how many they might win in the future. But that is my opinion. You can be happy about the Jazz season, but if they don't win a championship (and they have at least a 25% chance right now ), I'm not going to think they were a success. When/if the Jazz win one, maybe you will understand. Does that mean I've been disappointed every season since 1995? Yep, but I'm pretty weird in that I don't dwell on it for longer than a few hours, because (in the "grand scheme") it's not that important, and it would be ridiculous to feel awful about something I have no control over. (You won't find any ridiculous post by me in the main forum, calling for everyone to be traded and Van Gundy to be drawn and quartered... ) But I am very happy that I've been fortunate enough to see my favorite team win a championship twice, and that it was at a time when I was allowed to be emotionally engrossed in it all, because, at that age, basketball was all I cared about. But if you can get joy out of a season that ends in defeat, that's fine. It doesn't mean other people have to view that as a success, especially the fans of other teams. I guess you draw joy from the hope for next season... A lot of fans do. <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3ZnzYZmIinM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3ZnzYZmIinM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
I don't think you really understand what I'm saying. I think every team should aim to win a championship and I hope the Jazz can win one in the coming years. Of course I do know it takes time to build to that point, because rarely can a team just go from 26 wins (Utah's win total two years ago) and then an NBA Championship without some major rebuilding. I know the Spurs did it in 1999, but it wasn't as if they were a terrible team before they decided to tank the '97 season to get Duncan (59 wins in 1996). So this is a good first step. You're right though, Utah very well could fall back to being a playoff team every few years and that wouldn't be something I'd accept however. I never said I would. But I realize that the chances of the Jazz going from no playoffs in three years, to NBA Champions are pretty slim. So I'm looking for any hope that this team is taking that step and I think we're seeing it. If this season ends short of a championship and the Jazz only win 45 games next year and get knocked out in the first round, I would be extremely disappointed. However, unless they get swept by their next opponent, I can't be disappointed by what they've achieved this season. It'll only become disappointing if Utah falters again and this is the pinnacle of this era's success.
