Max: Unfortunately, that is the impression many religions give. I went to religious schools from K-12 and it was my experience that the church was: Exclusionary Harsh Dogmatic Inflexible Misleading Happy that sinners are going to hell Judgemental Petty Arrogant Of course, this is not an accounting of individual members who were very often sweet and kind. And, it was terribly un-representative of Jesus' actual teachings. It's like the face of the peace movement. Most people picture an aging, pot smoking hippie with no clue about reality. Islam is now seen as represented by suicide bombers. Well, for religion, many people still picture Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson - bitter, judgemental old jerks. Like with many things, perception is reality and that is sad because Christianity can be a really beautiful and meaningful religion. All of them can be. It just takes getting past the surface perception to the real message it has for humanity.
Mad Max, and Jeff, Great posts. I agree with almost all of what you said, and couldn't phrase it so concisely myself. This is a great thread.
I understand your point, but just because the telling of a story changes doesn't automatically mean that the message or moral changes. Tales of King Arthur have been told many different ways, even on film. Excalibur is very different than the movie with Sean Connery, and Richard Gere, but both have a message about chilvary. Robin Hood has also been told many ways even in film. There's the Errol Flynn version and the Kevin Costner version, and a Douglas Fairbanks Sr. version, all are different but still have the message of fighting injustice, and greed etc.
I don't understand what you are saying. Could you clarify what was confusing? It is probably just my poor communication of what I was trying to say. Max, You were "mean" because I posted something to you about Josephus and you did not respond...but you made another post later that mentioned Josephus again so it was as if you were rubbing it in my face. Of course, I don't really think that...just being silly.
oh..i've never heard those accusations against Josephus. I've read and heard it said that he was the preeminent historian of his day. Of course, I wasn't there, so I don't really know. Is that faith?
This is a really great discussion of religion, but I feel, as I'm sure most Christians here would attest, that it is a PERSONAL relationship with God that is most important. I have always been in a church while I was growing up, but it wasn't until I was 30 that I developed a personal relationship with God. Kind of happened in an odd way... my fiance at the time had been listening to a band called Third Day and always wanted to listen to it in the car. I obliged her (because I am such a sweet guy) and the messages in the songs started to resonate. I stared asking, if this song was about Peter, is this about that verse or that Psalm because I studied the Bible for a class in college as well. Later after we both listened to the CD's for awhile, I saw them in concert. I saw people who were real, who were not fake, and who were intelligent, learning and trying to live a life according to God's word. I now know that the feelings that you get telling you that something is wrong (some call it a conscience) is the holy spirit. Ya, I'm not perfect by a long shot, but if I try to live a life according to the teachings of Jesus, it makes me feel whole and connected to a higher power. By the way, if you want to check out Third Day, they have a radio station on live 365 and it is broadcasts on www.thirdday.com If you want a recommendation on what album to get (first, if you like it you'll end up getting them all) go with the first Offerings. P.S., please don't misconstrue this post. I do not think I am better than anyone else, far from it. Also I do NOT worship the guys in the band, just the message, and I am not trying to convert anyone. Just giving my personal account. Do with it what you will.
it's sad that you feel like you have to apologize somehow for what you wrote...i understand why you did it....but you spoke from the heart and shared something very real to you...don't apologize.
curious. Have more cc.net flame wars been fought over religion/morals, race, politics, or the Rockets!
The fact that this thread exists without Islam or Christian bashing is amazing. It's impressive what can happen when people stand by their opinions but are willing to listen to others.
the biggest problem i have with the new testatment n the bible is it said people can only go to heaven through jesus and i dunt believe this! i think some peoples like my grandma never knew what jesus is n always worshiped buddha all her life becuz of chinese culture but she is one of the kindest woman i know n i believe she will go to heaven! i believe the bible is not perfect n not everything it said in the book is the iron truth/law that it cant be change by god in heaven! God doesnt judge u with the bible on his hand like a lawbook , god judge u by his own, unlike the judge in a court room!
I've talked about this with friends of mine as well. It is a part of Christianity that a lot of people have a problem with. Do overall good people, that don't believe that Jesus is THE (not just A) Son of God, go to Heaven? In John chapter 14 a disciple asks the very same question: John 14 Jesus Comforts His Disciples 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going." Jesus the Way to the Father 5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. You are correct in stating that God will be the judge and that is why I can only tell you what I believe to be true according to his word. I absolutely will not attempt to judge anyone, as it is not my place. Now I could just tell you that I believe that people who are good and do what they think is best all go to heaven, but that's not what the Bible teaches, so I am not going to try and tell something I don't personally agree with. In fact, according to Biblical teachings I would be doing you a great disservice and would be shirking on one of my greatest responsibilities as one that believes.
fatfatcow -- that's an EXCELLENT question. I agree with you wholeheartedly that God does not judge that way...and I don't pretend to be able to judge someone's salvation on my own! Interestingly enough, there are accounts of the writer of the Book of Acts, Luke (who was a disciple of Jesus), crediting a belief in God to those who had never heard the Gospel. A great example was a Roman centurion named Corenelius. Luke credited him with a faith in God and good works as a product of that faith...even though it appears the man really didn't know much about Jesus before he encountered Peter and other disciples. This from Acts 10:1-3 1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" This man was not Jewish...he likely had heard very little about Jesus, as the chapter goes on to illustrate...but he had faith in God and he gave generously. And God poured out his grace on him. Nevertheless, I don't think there's anything we can do to earn God's grace...we get it despite our own nature.
What I have come to understand is that maybe its not religion thats flawed, but the interpretations. Many will interpret the religion to suit their own interest and that man will inherantly do what is best for their personal situation and to maximize their gains. Every religion seems to preach the same things. Honesty, Integrity, Good Will and Faith. It is just people that mess it up. Whether its a religious leader or someone capitalizing on religion; usually there are some motives involved. I think thats why the US has had so much success. The system in place allowed a free economic system along with an elimination in any religious bias'.
