Riet, that is a desperate mans argument. You are just reaching now. You could not point out one stat or legit argument from the post. You had to reach for the race card. If I was racist I would be arguing for dunleavy, or some other white guy. Anti-rocket, I think not. I was a Rocket fan long before Ming arrived, and still come here, even though it is pretty much a Yao fan club now, hoping to get some info on the team I didn't have before. You have never seen a post of me bashing the Rocket's. You think it is possible to have a favorite team and like a player from another teams game more than the guy on your team. Is it anti-rocket for everyone to want to trade Mobley-Griffin for another PF or SG or Francis for a "true" point guard and bash them all the time. No, you are only anti-rocket if you prefer someone over Ming.
You are right. I have never seen a post of you bashing the Rockets as a team. All your posts just bashed Yao Ming the player.
What a hypocrite. First you complain about the so-called Yao-only fans and claim they aren't true Rockets fan and yet the only time you post is to bash Yao Ming, our newest and potentially best Rockets player. I don't have the search function but I guarantee that if youve posted 30 times this season at least 25 are bashing Yao Ming. You rarely, if ever, post about anything even related to the Rockets unless it's about Yao. Somehow, everytime you come to the site, it's just to check out Rockets news unless it's Yao related. Then of course your compelled to throw in your negative 2 cents. Some of my favorites include Yao is only winning blah blah blah poll because it's all rigged and if it wasn't, Yao doesnt deserve this or that blah blah blah. As far as the Steve/Cat bashers. There is a divided split among these posters. However, I guarantee you that almost no one bashed Cat or Steve in their rookie campaign. Do you seriously believe that Miami fans bash Caron Butler, Phoenix fans bash Amare or Denver fans bash Nene Hilario? No. Why? because theyve played as well as expected. And given that Yao has played as well as any rookie in the league, it's hard fopr me to imagine any true fan bashing their player. Here's a clue. Rookies almost never get bashed if they show any kind of potential. And the people who bash them usually have an agenda. And this is not a Yao only phenomenon.
I will respond to each of your attacks First, you are right most of my post are in the Yao-amare threads. It was the first subject I really got in on, and gave my opinion that I liked Amare more. Then, it turned into this kinda of thing,where they were bashing me instead of my argument. So obviously, I became more vocal about it and respond when I see a thread like this. Next, In a way it is kinda hypocritical for me to bash them for bashing the rest of the team, when I bash Ming. But, it is differrent in the fact that I don't care who gets how many shots and expect everyone other than my favorite to cater to my favorite's stat line. I am not begging for Ming to be traded or all the coaches be fired for my favorite player on the Rocket's to get more shots. I just want the team to succeed. Next, about the poll's being rigged. This one speaks for itself. Everyone of those threads started with Amare leading, then throughout the thread you all would come up with a way to cheat and admit that you voted hundreds of times a piece. One thread was even titled how to cheat on poll or somthing to that effect. If that is not rigging or cheating, I don't know what you would call it. Next, the differrence between the other rookies you named and Yao is that they have exceeded expectation's. Yao was #1 overall and supposed to be fundamentally solid. #1 are supposed to be a lock and dominate from the begginning. Yao was neither. Olowakandi was neither and never got much better. Brown was neither but still a teenager, so he gets a pass for now. Brand, Duncan, Iverson, Shaq, Webber, all were dominate from the start. That is what a #1 is supposed to get you. Yao is about on K-mart's level without the toughness for #1 production.
I agree about the polls being rigged, I think it's pretty ****ing lame. It pisses me off because it's a Rocket...that I LOVE....that doesn't need the cheating to win IMO, and people are posting scrips so we can all go vote a billion times. That is lame...LAME. That other stuff is between you guys, I just had to get that off my chest.
I don't have the search function but you have repeatedly bashed Yao in other threads - not just those w/ Amare Stoudemire. The fact you continually bash our arguably second best player is beyond me. First, it's obvious who the Yao only fans are. They are not real Rockets fans and don't claim to be. And if they argue otherwise, it's so transparent any 2 year old child could recognize the facade (ala Yetti). You state that you have been a Rockets fan for a long time. I have never seen a true Rockets fan bash a rookie player the way you've repeatedly done so with Yao. All the high Rockets draft choices ranging from John Lucas, Ralph Sampson, Rodney McCray, Steve Francis, even Eddie Griffin, have always gotten the benefit of the doubt in their rookie season. The fact you call yourself a true Rockets fan yet continue to criticize our most promising player tells me youre no better than the Yao only fans who don't give a rat's behind how the Rockets do. I don't want to harp on the polls because they're all stupid. However, it's absurd to believe that Yao would lose any legitimate poll just due to cheating. If you haven't noticed, Yao is probably among the top 5 most popular players in the NBA. As a test to his legitimate popularity, Yao has been on how many SI covers? How many commercials? How many teams sell out just because of Yao. GS was giving away an autographed Yao Ming jersey on their website. And the correlation between being popular and a popularity poll is...... Very few people in the NBA or otherwise believed Yao was going to come in and dominate immediately. Most projected Yao to be a 2-3 year project. Dick Vitale and many others predicted him to be a complete bust. For someone to come in without any training camp and perform the way he has is nothing short of outstanding. I guarantee you if Houston offered Yao for Amare or Yao for Caron Butler or Yao for Nene Hilario or Jay Williams, or any other rookie, their respective teams would jump at the chance on potential alone. Rookie seasons are about potential, not numbers. That's why people give rookies a fee pass. Lastly, if there was an award and it came down to Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis and stats were almost equal, do you believe a real Rockets fan would continually argue for Marbury? especially a self-proclaimed long time Rockets fan? That's absurd.
Riet, I actually like Ming and want the him to succeed since he is the starting center for the Rockets and probally isn't going anywhere for a long time, but that doesn't mean I have to love his game. Again, I just want the team to make it back to the top and don't think he will get us there carrying the team like most others seem to think. I do like Amare more because I think our team needs someone aggressive like him more than a soft center and I would definately take LBJ over him because he is exactly what our team needs in the fact he gets everyone involved and can do it by himself, also. On the free pass for rookies, I think this only applies to the young ones. Duncan was the last 22 year old rookie to come in and supposed to be a big factor for a franchise and I promise you if he would have only averaged 13,8 his rookie season, the spurs fans would have been bashing him. 22 year olds are supposed to be ready when they get to the league. And as far as the missing training camp and stuff like that, these are things that come in a package deal with Ming. He is not going to stop doing what he or they want. We will deal with this as long as we have him, so we can't use that as an excuse. And the Steve Francis- Marbury thing, wasn't there actually a poll on here the other day about this? I actually think Marbury did better this year for the same reason as the Yao-Amare argument. We are watching the playoff's this year, they are playing. Just because you have a favorite team doesn't mean you have to be a complete blind homer. You can still think other people had a better season than your guy, espically when it is obvious your guys didn't get it done.
T-Man, Riet, get a room please. Stop this non-sense arguing. Rocket fan shouldn't be fighting with Rocket fan, epecially on a personal level and the bw problems cc.net has. What did surprise me is that Amare passed Yao in ppg, that's gonna change a lot of voters minds. Honestly that scares me. PPG and RPG are huge stats for big men and now that Amare has both of them to his credit and suns making the playoffs, its hard to vote against. Yao has made a bigger impact but as of right now, as hot as Amare is, it's hard to vote against him. Yao went from being a lock in my book a week ago to a more probable co-Roy candidate. I think he'll still win cuz the voters gonna look at impact, but the numbers thing really scared me, it also pissed me off that his fg% dropped below 50%, though barely, it does make it look that much worse.
I picked Yao because I'm a homer, but if you consider Amare was playing high school ball last year and he has this kind of season you can't argue that he isn't deserving as well. j
You obviously are a moron. I won't even go into an argument about who deserves the award, cuz others here have said all the points already (eg. more impact, better stats in less mins, playing with not as god players). But I will say this. If you think Yao won the polls because Rox fans cheated then you are mistaken. Even the mighty Clutch City is not all powerful (there I've said it) and quite frankly Houston is not the largest city in the US. Rox fans are also NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO KNOW HOW TO WRITE A SCRIPT. So if you think Rox fans cheated on the polls to help Yao win (unless on a homer site) then you really are a moron. Secondly, exactly which polls did Amare lead before, I counted 2, while there are plenty of polls that Yao never looked back on. Care to elaborate? Finally, who exactly is supposed to have an impact right away? Derrick Coleman and Kwame Brown are simply amazing. Larry Johnson did what? Joe Smith was a great pick and it's an NBA conspiracy that he's not a superstar right now. Kandiman has his all mighty 8.9 PPG. Other misses include Shawn Bradley being drafted 2nd overall. There are great #1 picks but drafts have always been luck of the draw and the better picks are better picks because they either are 1. More NBA ready 2. Actually got skill and time to develop Not because the sole fact they're #1. Yao's number 2 of the above. If you think the #1 pick means sure thing if you pick them, why not buy the lottery tomorrow? You'll surely win.
I beg to differ. In the most general offensive stat, Yao is comfortably ahead... Efficiency/48 minutes: Yao 29.16, Amare 23.59. Yao's per minute efficiency is 14th IN THE LEAGUE. Amare's isn't even in the top 50. The problem here is, Amare played a lot more minutes, used more time to get those stats. Yao did his thing in substantially less time and therefore was a more influential factor when he was on the floor. Dave.
He was also known to be undersized for his position in his upper body, a situation that to this day is only partly corrected. He came into the season with hardly any training camp at all, thoroughly exhausted, and still put up a Rik Smits class season through it all. You're basing your argument on a hypothetical, and that hypothetical is that a #1 draft choice should be a fully developed best of breed, which clearly isn't always the case. Further, looking at the people you've chosen as immaculate examples of being as "good as it can get" when chosen #1, most have shown improvement over the course of their careers as well, with the exception of Elton Brand, who seems statistically stuck for the time being, and not improving at all. Webber's first year, he was doing 17.5 ppg and 9.1 rpg. Good numbers but hardly dominating numbers. He's had seasons where his scoring average was on the order of 27 points per game. His scoring improvement is on the order of 10 points per game. Alan Iverson scored in the 23 range his rookie season, which is quite good, but he's had more than one season where he scored more than 30. His improvement is on the order of 6-7 points per game. Likewise, Shaquille O Neal, who may be the strongest center ever to play the game, improved 6 points per game from his rookie campaign to his second year. About the only player from that list of yours that could be described as "dominate (sic) from the start" and with only minor improvements from year to year is Tim Duncan, and yet his scoring average seems to have improved by about 3 ppg or so, and his rebounding by a rpg over his years in the league. Finally, comparing a foreigner playing in a foreign league to American born and bred stars (most of whom had at least 2 or 3 college seasons before entering the NBA) seems a little harsh. How well did Dirk Nowitski do his first season in the league? 8.2 ppg, so I'm told. But he's improved every year since he came into this league. Now his scoring average is about 25 ppg. If Yao improves by 4 ppg his next year, and then duplicates that improvement in his third year, you'll end up with a guy giving you 21 ppg and 8-9 rpg. Not bad, ya know? More so, there is this slender once underbuilt American named Kevin Garnett, who showed a series of improvements from pretty good stats to totally dominating numbers. T-Man, I don't think you've really "proven" your case... Dave.
Amare is an outstanding rookie but I think his stats are little misleading. And for someone who evaluate a player strictly on stats and failing to equate the other factors that don't appear on the stat sheet is truely a simpleton. How many times have we seen Amare gets to play in garbage minutes when the game is decided? Yao did not get the same stat patting luxury like Amare got from his coach. Yao will always go to the bench, whether the Rockets are leading by a large margin or losing by a large margin. Amare deserves ROY consideration but Yao deserves more but i'll let others say the reasons why... My choice: Yao Ming, Houston. I know that Amare Stoudemire's Suns are going to be in the playoffs, and Yao's Rockets are not. But Stoudamire, nor any other rookie, has had the burden on him that Yao had this season. Economic, social, global, you name it, Yao had to deal with it this year -- as well as master a new language and continue a basketball-centric schedule that hasn't given him a week off in more than two years. That he survived is worth noting; that he lived up to the hype gets him the hardware. A solid 13-point-plus scoring average, more than eight boards, a healthy 1.7 swats and 80 percent from the line are more than good enough. -David Aldridge, ESPN.com "This race tightened up as the season went on, with Yao leading early, Phoenix's Amare Stoudemire emerging in the middle and Miami's Caron Butler making a strong push at the end. But Stoudemire didn't sustain his numbers any better than Yao, and Butler thrived for a bad team, where someone has to score. So for surviving all the hype, for handling the spotlight with such grace, for defusing a lot of yappy situations against Shaquille O'Neal and for all the promise he still shows, we're going with Yao." - Steve Aschburner, Minneapolis Star-Tribune "If it's close or anyone other than Yao and Amare Stoudemire get a vote, someone's either only looking at stats or repaying a favor. Stoudemire is extraordinary for a high school player and is the year's most athletic rookie, but this isn't the MSROY (Most Surprising Rookie of the Year) award. The Suns don't (yet) run their offense through Amare the way the Rockets do with Yao. Opponents offensively and defensively don't make special plans to counteract him the way they do Yao, either. Kings center Vlade Divac: "To me, Rookie of the Year has to change the way his team plays. Stoudemire is a role player. Yao is a key player." - Ric Bucher, ESPN The Magazine "But while Stoudemire is the surprise rookie of the year and the most athletic rookie, he hasn’t had the same overall impact as Yao. The Suns don’t run their offense through him the way the Rockets do through Yao. Meanwhile, at the other end of the court, Yao’s size allows him to change and alter shots on a regular basis. It’s become trendy among some NBA cognoscenti to contend that Yao is still more hype than substance. They note that the 7-foot-5 phenom has benefited in the rookie race from his dubious All-Star starting berth and greater number of TV appearances. But Yao also has had to deal with the pressure and responsibilities of being the No. 1 overall pick and the unofficial Chinese ambassador. Yao shoots a high percentage (50.9 percent), passes extremely well and impacts the game more on the defensive end. The fact that he’s excelled while being besieged by media and fans everywhere he goes is an added factor. It’s a close call, but we’ve got to give it to Yao." - Marty Burns, Sports Illustrated "It required two seconds with any coach before the season even began for them to say the 7-5 Chinese center was going to be an immediate impact player, and they were right. Terrific shooting range with touch, stunningly great passing skills, good shot-blocking instincts and a surprisingly strong lower body made Yao an instant success." - Mike Kahn, CBS Sportsline "A show of hands: Who said Yao had a chance to be a productive player this season? Not I. Stoudemire has been magnificent in helping the Suns get to the playoffs. But no one has endured the attention and pressure Yao has. He has handled it with grace and professionalism." - Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune "For months we surmised that the No. 8 spot in the West would be the ROY tiebreaker between Yao and Suns sensation Amare Stoudemire. At the buzzer, even though Stoudemire and the Suns claimed it, we just couldn't deny Yao. Manly as Amare was, leaping from high schooler to NBA impact player a year after we had all lost faith in prep stars, Yao made a more daunting and historic transition, coming all the way from China to the heady heights of starting center in the All-Star Game and, for one night in January, legitimate Shaq foil." - Marc Stein, espn.com "Yao is given the slight edge here for being a better all-around player than the Suns' Stoudemire, 20, who will be a force when his offensive game develops and he learns to limit his foul trouble." - Brad Weinstein, San Francisco Chronicle Yao and Amare Stats Yao MPG-------FG%----FT%----RPG------BPG---TO-----PPG---DD---EFF 29.0---------.498----.811-----8.23---1.79---2.11--13.46---27--17.65 ___________________________________________________ Amare 31.34--------.472----.661-----8.79---1.04---2.305--13.49--25--15.40 ___________________________________________________ Rookie leaders - 48 minutes ------------PP48------RP48------EFF48(efficiency)--------BP48 Yao---------22.2-------13.5-------29.06-------------------2.90 Amare-------20.7------13.5------23.63---------------------1.62 ___________________________________________________
Dwmyers, The #1 should be the "best of breed" but doesn't have to be fully developed. The differrence between those others was they had the drive and desire to do what it takes to get it done. There was no doubt they were going to be superstars. Can you name one #1 over the last 20 years taken for potential that has panned out? And "this slender once underbuilt American named Kevin Garnett" was 18 when he came into the league. He was not 22 or a #1 anyways. Ckfol, Do you realize the differrence between .498% and .472% is about one shot out of 50? That means if they both took 50 shots that Yao would make 25 while Amare would make 24. And this argument about more minutes, please he played 2 extra minutes a game and if Yao was in shape and able to go more, he would have. So you are basing your argument on the efficient 1 shot out of 50, better Ft%, and Yao's lack of physical shape.
I really can't understand this type of thinking. Why can't Yao fans be or become Rocket fans? Think of all the fans that MJ brought to the Bulls over the length of his career. Do Bulls fans spend time debating whether so and so is a Jordan only fan and not a true Bulls fan and should therefore be relegated to a lower category of fan? Is being a Rockets fan some sort of exclusive club that needs to be protected from the great unwashed masses? Give me a break...
The difference is that "Yao only fans" only want Yao to succeed and everything else is secondary. It's asinine to suggest some of these posters are Rockets fans because being a Rockets fan should not be dependent on 1 player. If Yao is traded to Golden State, would some of these posters still be Rockets fans? No. So why should we pretend these posters have any loyalty to the team other than because of Yao. As far as the entire T-Man issue. I cannot do a search so I'm not going to comment anymore on the subject other than in this post. I have read the majority of his posts during the season and the majority of them were blatant Yao bashing, many of which had nothing to do with Amare Stoudemire or even Yao's play. My theory is that since Stoudemire was Yao's closest rival to ROY, his hatred could be statisfied in this type of discussion rather than in a less politically correct manner. He's much more cordial here in this thread because it would be suicide not to and basically prove my theory. I can understand why "Yao only fans" only want what's in his best interest (however annoying it may be). What I can't understand is why a real Rockets fan would focus all his energy bashing the most promising and exciting player this teams has had in years. It doesn't make sense until you factor in the side issues that have nothing to do with basketball.
Vlade summed it up best. <i>Vlade Divac: "To me, Rookie of the Year has to change the way his team plays. Stoudemire is a role player. Yao is a key player."</i>
