Ron Artest: All Heart, All Courage, All Warier!

You're not addressing any of the things that I said except for you saying that although your strategy is unlikely to work, the Rockets should "roll the dice" and see if it does.

Sorry but that's absurd.

 

Great game Ron, keep up the hard work.

 

Are you referring to the point about needing a PG that can make up for the games that Tmac is out, to compensate for the lack of Artest?

I agree, that would be ideal, but since there are very few elite PGs, I would settle for a very good one, because the way I see it is that you are playing for when Tmac is healthy not for when he is out.

When he is out a very good PG can still get the ball to Yao, hit open shots and work well with the team and I contend win as many games as having Artest.

Assume Tmac is going to miss 20 games....let's say Artest will help win 13 while Tmac is out, and a decent PG would only help win 11......

I contend that the difference is negligible and will more than be made up in the 60+ games that TMac does play by having a decent PG on the floor with the starters, and will most assuradly help in the playoffs.

I would roll the dice on the 60 games more than planning for the 20.

DD

 

Trade Ron Artest for a PG?

Uh..bad idea...

Ron Artest has become for me, one of the untradeables on this team.

If you want to trade anyone for a great PG, trade T-Mac. Seriously. I don't care if we don't get equal value. I know we won't.

Just trade T-Mac for a very good PG, and I'm happy.

 

I don't disagree with you here, but Tmac is untradeable, so I am trying to be realistic.

To me, having Ron, Tmac and Battier on the same team is redundant...and we have a severe weakness at the starting PG spot, one that is constantly exposes in the playoffs as teams leave Rafer wide open...ON PURPOSE.

DD

 

Artest, Scola, and Landry are the only ones on this team with heart. They are the only ones who I know wont choke in big games. They always give 100% effort no matter what.

 

I would say...Artest, Scola, Landry and Battier are the guys who compete the hardest every single game.

DD

 

For your plan to work - we have to assume that Tracy will only miss 20 games and that he will be at full strength for the games he plays (which he has not been either this year or in the past)...Not to mention the 4-5 games a year where he only plays a few quarters then shuts it down due to injury or "tweaking".

YOu're also assuming no injuries to Yao where a second scorer, even at the swingman spot, is also needed.

You're also assuming no injuries to Battier who missed a big part of this year with injuries and is at the age when this begins to be a problem.

Finally you're assuming that Hinrich is a substantial upgrade over Alston to merit 4 years/40 million (in the last few years he has definitely not been).

There's a pretty good chance your house of assumptions collapses on itself like a subprime-backed CDO and this is the reason why guys like Morey are able to magically turn lower second round draft picks into an equivalent number of higher second round picks when people are willing to pay a premium for inferior value.

 

good point, I cant believe I forgot about Shane.

 

Sam,

Forget the fact that yes I believe Hinrich is a significant upgrade.

I will concede that Tracy has historically missed games and mailed it in, but the team is married to this guy, for better or worse for the next 2 years.

The fact is that there is not much they can do about that, at least until next year, when someone might want his expiring contract.

I guess it depends on whether you believe that a TMac team can win, I still do (though I think it less likely)....and I would be willing to give it a hard shot these next 2 years.......

I like Artest, I just think he is redundant....but I concede your point that he is only redundant when all 3 are healthy and that has not been the case.

I happen to think they will get healthy and then you have a situation much like Scola and Landry where both deserve more minutes but there are not enough of them to go around.

Meanwhile you have a glaring hole at PG where one guy is getting WAY to many minutes and will eventually hurt the team in the playoffs because other teams don't have to guard him.

DD

 

And is not the case. And will not be the case. I have said this in the past and never been wrong about it. I don't think I will start being wrong now or next year.

Accordingly the case is basically closed because Chris Paul or Derrick Rose or even Mike Bibby is not walking through that door for Ron Artest + filler, and adding a limited player with a big contract like Hinrich to replace Artest plus 50+ games of Yao/TMac/Battier injury does not seem logical by any conceivable means. Just because you value a player highly does not make him good as we have seen in the past.

 

Back to Artest...


He had a wonderful game. His demeanor and passion would not let up. He made the plays down the game and would not let this team lose.

He's a man amongst boys.

 

We shall see hombre, we shall see.

I think a small upgrade improves the team dramatically, if you put a healthy Hinrich, or even Steve Blake on this team, it is a lot better...and no I am not saying trade Artest for Blake....

I am just saying that we have a massive hole at the PG position that will continue to be exposed in the playoffs, unless there is a viable solution, and we have an excess at PF and SG/SF....too many players ...too few minutes for each.....

DD

 

DD

Everyone knows where you stand. No one really responds to your posts to disagree with you. They do it because you are blatantly wrong. You have been proved wrong game after game yet you continue to hold on to your belief that a mediocre PG would help this team more than Ron Artest and Rafer Alston. What evidence are you going off of? What are you basing your argument on? Basically your whole argument is that Rafer can't shoot and that having Battier, Tmac, and Artest is redundant. How do you come to these conclusions. Not by watching the games I hope. Its been pretty clear how valuable Artest is to this team, and he is not even 100 percent healthy yet. I think you'd find a hard time fidning any off season acquisition on any team making as big of an impact as Artest.

Can you explain to me how having Tracy, Shane, and Artest on the team is redundant. Theyre all completely different players. Tracy can play 2 and 3, Shane can play 3 and 4, and Artest can play 2, 3, and 4. Why can't they mesh? They all bring alot of unique attributes to the table, and they all offer position flexibility. Tracy is easily the best ball handler and passer of the three. Battier is the guy who can provide spacing by consistantly knocking down open 3 point shots, he hustles, plays smart defense, takes charges, blocks shots rebounds, and is the most unselfish player on the team. Ron is a physical prescense on both ends of the floor, and he can get to the basketand score from basically any spot on the floor. He guards basically any position you need him to and he creates steals and is good in transition.

Sounds to me like we just have 3 really solid players that can complement eachother. When both Artest and Tmac are on the floor at the same time, one of them is going to be guarded by a weaker defender. When Battier and Artest or on the floor at the same time, Artest has room to operate on the block and we can matchup better on defense. Last night was a good example because Battier's defense, although extremely disciplined, didn't really bother Joe Johnson. When Artest switched on to him, his aggressive attacking defense forced johnson into alot of bad shots and bad decisions, and Battier was allowed to play off the ball where he is really effective as a help defender and a rebounder.

Bottom line is that Artest makes the team better in ways a PG could not. If after this many games, youre going to sit there and say that Artest is just a ball stopped on offense and his IQ is too low to play with two superstars, you're watching the wrong game. Artest has been extremely unselfish and he has deferred to both Yao and Tmac when he has had to. He played in basically any role the team has needed him to play, and he has been good at it. How coould you possibly come to the conclusion that he isn't a good fit on this team?

I havent any mentioned how Rafer has been a huge factor in alot of our wins this year. SO you throw that in to the mix and theres just no way you can logically say that a Kirk Hinrich typed PG would be a better fit on this team. Could Kirk Hinrich shut down Joe Johnson in the 4th quater the way Ron did? Couold he have made all of those clutch plays down the stretch in agame where we were really tested? I don't think so.

 

I just see things more clearly than you.

I am basing my observations upon the skillsets of the players. If you have all 3 healthy, there are not enough minutes to constitute playing them all. I am not downgrading Artest as a player, I am saying his attributes are already covered by players the Rockets currently have.

Ron is great on Defense - so is Shane
Ron needs the ball to be effective - so does Tmac
Ron's ability to bogart his way to the basket is negated by having a big 7foot 6" guy in his way....Shane spaces the floor and moves without the ball better.

I concede that if one of Shane or Tmac is out, Ron is very valuable, but I contend that at the end of the year both Shane and Tmac will be healthy and you will not have enough minutes for all 3 of them and they don't play well together, and you still have a huge hole at PG.

The ONLY way they work well together is to move Tmac to the PG spot on offense, and let Shane or Ron guard the other team's PG on defense. And with Tmac being so fragile that is a very dangerous scenario.

I already conceded that if Tmac is out he fits...I am thinking longer term here, mostly the playoffs for this season and next.

Wow- you seriously undervalue how important the role of a good PG is, someone who can penetrate and dish as well as hit the open shot, that is what has been missing from the Rockets, there is a reason team's leave Rafer Alston wide open....and it is not because he is good at running the offense.

All the teams advancing in the playoffs have quality PGs.....that is not a coincidence.

In today's no touch on the perimeter NBA, the PG is one of the 2 most valuable positions on the court....the Rockets have failed to address it adequatly and it is a major reason for failure in the first round year after year.

Kirk Hinrich is a very good defender, better than Rafer....could he shut down Joe Johnson? Probably not. But again, I am thinking about the overall chemistry of this team, and am betting that the Tmac and Yao will be healthy.

If not, then the team is not going anywhere anyway.......

I believe Ron Artest is a ball stopper, a guy who plays great D, is tough as nails and mentally tough.

Honestly I would trade Tmac first, but I don't think you could get fair value for him, and since the team has decided to roll the dice with Tmac, you have to move your chips all in......and try for the next 2 years at least to Get R done.

Artest has a tradeable contract, and is in a position where the Rockets are already strong...why not trade to upgrade our most glaring weakness?

For the record, I would also consider trading Landry or Scola (preferably Landry) to upgrade the PG spot, because both of them deserve more time then they are currently going to get......and Hayes is a decent backup.....

We need a PG desperatly.....at least that is my thinking...

DD

 

Dear Kingk0ng,

See this post.....

But, I get your point....I should not have continued...my bad.

Ron was a Tru Wariar last night....

DD

 

Artest is built like a rock and is known as one of the toughest players in the league. So comparing him with chicken legs doesn't seem right.

But to Tmac's defense, even if he's only playing on a sore knee, it was obviously affecting him enormously, which in turn affected the entire team.
So, I'd rather let him get his rest while we are on a easy schedule then hopefully he'll be atleast 80% healthy and be even more effective than he would be otherwise.

But to your credit OP, I appreciate you trying to stop your thread from becoming another bash ------- thread. (fill in the blank)