andy...you go back and forth, flipping from argument to argument. yesterday you said it was merely an assumption...a best guess...that the fetus was alive or not alive...today you say, "it's not yet allive." bold, to be sure...but you're ignoring the general argument of everyone arguing against you...that you and I and no one else knows for sure if the fetus is alive or not...and that enacting a policy that says it can be terminated is playing loose and fast with human life. your counter-argument, as i've read it, was that it didn't matter to you if it was human life before 3 months...the woman's rights are superior and, thus, even if it is human life, she has every right in the world to kill it. just be consistent... God does not let us ban drugs, you say...but earlier you talk of free will. So which is it? Is your god a god who determines the fate of man...who determines which social policies work and which don't?? or is your god a god that allows for free will?
1. what you call medical procedure, many others call murder 2. society does not have the right to ban abortion based on assumptions? really? who says? you? and what are you basing that on? YOUR ASSUMPTIONS that the fetus is NOT living??? come on...you're arguing semantics here.
Clinton shouldn't have been impeached for other reasons (and I am much more Republican than Democrat). Consequences should not be imposed by society for something that is assumed and can't be proven. When was the last time you attended a funeral for a miscarried fetus? They might be mourned for a short time, but since there was no "life" in this world (only in the world of the womb), people move on and try again.
i'm literally disturbed by some of your arguments here. 1. clinton -- that wasn't my point...that's a whole other thread 2. we outlaw things based on value choices. 3. i don't even understand your funeral argument...do you have any concept of a miscarriage? do you have any idea how painful that is for a family? my son had a name from the moment he was conceived...i talked to him...played music for him...felt his kicks and responses to certain stimuli...all well before he was born. my mother had two miscarriages...the pain is still with her. so judge for yourself about "moving on." but don't ever accuse the other side of this argument of being insensitive to women when you make a statement like that. "hello, pot...it's the kettle calling."
It is 2 different arguments. 1) My personal philosophy is that even if it IS a life (which I don't think it is), the karmic debt will be paid when the woman goes before God. 2) Government would be playing "fast and loose" with our guaranteed constitutional rights by attempting a ban on abortion based on the assumption that YOU make that the fetus is a life. My God created the Earth, every person, and every possible permutation, decision, and option that every person could possibly make. When we go through our lives, all those possibilities are out there and we have the free will to make the choices and decisions along the way to experience this life based on those decisions. Wo/Men create social policies and wo/men are the ones who have to examine that policy to make sure that it does not negatively impact that society, like prohibition (alcohol and drug), abortion bans, female genital mutilation, and slavery. Banning abortion would cause MANY more social problems than it could even potentially solve, and all that based on an assumption made by people who just can't seem to keep their noses in their own business.
And since there is not PROOF either way, it would be irresponsible of government to cede control of this medical procedure to criminals.
ok..now you're getting to the argument that we shouldn't ban it because people will still do it. we criminalized robbery eons ago...people still do it. we criminalized murder eons ago...people still do it. we criminalized perjury eons ago...people still do it. are we to rethink all our laws given the fact we haven't been 100% perfect in stamping out the unsavory acts? maybe we should just give up on criminal prosecution in general? laws are based on a culture's values....you're looking for proof. proof of what? of life? there are tale-tell signs of life. there are more signs that it's a separate living being than there are that it's just another piece of the woman's body. we can't definitively prove the moment a person dies...we determine it through various means (heat stop...brain wave inactivity...etc.) in fact, different states determine time of death in different ways. what i'm saying is that if you do not know...but you have strong reason to suspect it may be a human life...then the book is already out. we have countless legal opinions telling us of the value of human life...our culture is VERY clear on the value of human life. and inconvenience is never...ever...never a justifiable excuse to take another human life. never.
Uh, yes, I do have a concept of a miscarriage. It is Gods (or natures) way of saying that this fetus should not develop into a child, for whatever reason. My fetus also has a name that we will give to him/her when s/he is born. I will also play music, feel kicks, etc., well before s/he is born. That is, IF God decides that s/he should develop into a baby. I know a woman who had 3 miscarriages before her first child and one between her first and second. She moved on from each of them and went on to be a great mother. She NEVER considered any of the miscarriages anything more than a mass of cells that was never destined to be a child. Just like a mass of cells that is medically removed.
I do and so do many. My brother and his wife lost a child that was well-along. They celebrate the remembrance of a lost life in their family. So now you are banishing me to Syria. LOL! You don't have common sense; you have a cold heart and an overly-political mind. I don't really get why you keep trying to twist this into an anti-woman thing on my part. I have 3 daughters who will not be taught to terminate a life for the sake of their convenience, preference or whatever lame, shallow reason someone might try to get them to buy into. Save the child!
Are there many creatures besides human fetuses with beating hearts that are NOT alive. C'mon,man.. you are so dug in here you can't see the forest for the trees. Forgive the cliche.
All of these are examples of things that we KNOW FOR A FACT cause harm to another person or entity. A ban on abortion would be based on the ASSUMPTION that there is harm done to someone, which you cannot prove. There are tell tale signs of life VERY late in the pregnancy. Brain wave functions start in the 6th month. That is one of the most telling signs for me as this shows the first signs of sentience. Physically, a fetus cannot survive until (this is based on your assertion) 20 weeks, much later than abortions are allowed to be performed in most cases. We do not have strong reason to suspect it may be life if it cannot survive outside the womb.
whatever...make your arbitrary distinctions. good luck. hope your mass of cells turns out to be a fine individual. of course..i'm not much more than a mass of cells if you get right down to it
OK, but most people are reasonable. If you have a problem with the rights we are given in this country, go to a place where rights are curtailed the way you want already. It is an anti-woman thing. You want to take away the woman's right to choose what happens in her body. Teach your children whatever you want, that is your right. It is not your right or your place to take away the rights that other people have.
There wasn't. They move on from that event to the next one rather than dwelling on it like the aforementioned brother's family.
oh, good show, andy! hey...a guy i know recently lost a baby born with down's syndrome about 3 months after birth...do you have any cute sayings about how long he and his wife should reasonably mourn that i can take back to him??? thanks in advance for your help!
It's not an event; it's a death. Why in the world do you think that you have any idea how to tell someone to deal with a loss that you have never suffered. They have an annual remembrance. That included, they are a very normal... no, make that excellent... family model. You are becoming a caricature of your hideous outlook.
No, you are a living, breathing, thinking human being. You are quite unlike the lima bean sized (or smaller) mass of cells in that you have brain funtion, the ability to live ouside the womb, etc.
that is exactly right...it's one thing to argue womens' rights, etc. quite another to tell people what they should and should not mourn over in their family...telling them what can be reasonably mourned. andy...i wish like hell you were the spokesman for the pro-choice movement in this country.
