Nolen, "no superstar free agents for a long time" That simply is not true. Sign-n-trades are ALWAYS a possibility. That's how we got #33 when we were way over the cap. Plus, what makes you think we will EVER be under the salary cap. Look at Davo's page, then consider what we'll have to pay Shandon and Mobley eventually to keep them, NOT TO MENTION THE FRANCHISE!! I don't see what people are so scared about, Martin and Swift WILL be better than Cato, and Reeves will likely be better than any #9 we receive. It is a good trade, IMO. I have absolutely no problems with it, nor fears of Reeves contract. BTW: if you look at Reeves' first three years, he deserved that contract based on those numbers!! Plus, he IS 7' tall. At least we are talking real trade bait here. This is a cruel world. no dreamcasting.
Understood, pops. I just labelled it your trade for clarity. I really didn't think you were advocating it. ------------------
Heypartner: Don't forget about the new luxury tax which requires a team to pay $1million for every million they are over the cap. You think Les is going to want to be that far over the cap, mainly because a fat chump is eating $10 million a year to sit on the bench? I don't think so. You think Reeves would be better than any #9 we receive? IMO, Pig freaking Miller is an upgrade over Big Country, so we won't even compare a young player with potential and a $3million contract, to a fat player making $10mill+. As they say, you have to have some common ground to argue, and in this case, you think pretty highly of Big Country to prefer him over a lottery pick. Don't even try that with me. We're talking about a guy with a $65million contract with career averages of 13ppg, and 7 boards per game. You want deserve? Matt Bullard deserves that contract more than Big Country. Clutch: I would push for Shawn Marion in a Cato deal. I do not take Rodney Rogers for Cato. He's not the explosive forward we need. ------------------ "I don't care how tall the guy is, trade his ass!"
Great sleuthing.....I am getting a good hunch it's the Kandi man, even though he's not on a playoff team. Clutch's comment can easily just be totally voided, because there are still tampering rules. I also don't see any playoff teams just giving up on their young talent, and on the free agent front, unless we use our trade exception, we have little maneuverability, with just a 2.3 exception. The team could say "we're not doing a sign and trade" and we'd have to hope the player signs for 2.3 million, or we're screwed. Clutch, can you give us any more little clues? Such as is the player a free agent or not? Or, how bout, geographic location of the player (West, East, Central, South, North)? Population of home town? ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
Some random thoughts........so Doc Rocket could be considered an outlet, aka, someone inside the organization.....Doc said 2 things: #1-Moving into the top 3 would cost Cato, #2-What the NBA Wants the NBA Gets (And expect surprises at lotto time). The lotto drawing itself is done behind closed doors. In fact, I think it's done even earlier than the announced day (or at least earlier that day). The NBA WANTS Francis to succeed. And they KNOW that what we need is another big man. They also know that Stromile Swift would fit this team like a dream. KMart has also said he doesn't want to play in Chicago, so giving them a pick will only give them Mihm. Another team the NBA may want, would be Washington, with MJ. But Washington doesn't have the team potential, as their backcourt is old (so what, they've got Rip Hamilton) and their cap problems are pathetic. Or, trade talks are involved with LAC. Cato would be under contract longer than a rookie, and is a big man. Their goal is to not be embarrassed by Shaq again....Cato does well against him. They also need a PG (Drew) and we can also give them a PF, that's young, in KT, which could give them some good roleplayers with Odom, and we can send them pick #9. The only other team we could trade with up there would be Vancouver.....as popeye said, it'd be something to the tune of Cato+#9 for Reeves+#1, 2 or 3 (If the trade is for #4, I wouldn't do it.....Mihm, Martin, Swift would be gone.) If what Clutch says is right, and Doc knows what he's talking about, everything he said is good. Implies we've got a good chance of winning the lotto, or that we're in contact with a frontrunner for it, who will possibly trade us the pick. Now, on this Phoenix business.....what do we do at center.....what about: Cato+4.5+Walt for Marion, Googs, Longley (I dunno if that works cap wise.....but they'd want to get rid of Longley...they were willing to do Mutumbo for the 3, why not for Cato, Walt, and a trade coupon?....it'd probably also cost us a #9 pick, or a trade of picks, but you get the idea.....imagine a trio of Francis, Mobley, Marion in the back, with Googs and Longley up front) ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
I have kept too quiet.... GGNNNNNAAAAAAAAAHAAHHHHHHH!!!!! tell us Clutch! This is driving me nuts! ------------------ www.rocketzone.web.com
heypartner- forgot about sign-and-trades. Good point. Martin or Swift will be better than Cato. Agreed. Reeves is likely better than the #9 pick? No way in Hell. Dude. Mo Pete would be better than Reeves, in his first year alone. Mike Miller, D. Johnson, Darius Miles, all will be better than Reeves no question, and could probably be better just in their rookie seasons. I followed your suggestion and checked Reeves' stats. Oh my God. In only one season has Reeves averaged 8 rebounds, and in only one other season did he reach his dominating 1.08 blocks per game. Oh, but that was 2-3 years ago. It's been downhill since then. In 25 minutes a game this year, he has averaged 8.9 points, 5.7 rebs and 0.55 blocks per game. Cato averaged almost identical minutes this season. Considering his performance, potential, and relative contract cost, (not to mention how he fits the new style of play) he's looking real damn good right now. If you truly have no qualms about this hypothetical trade, then I get the feeling that you think Cato has little value, Reeves is actually good and Swift or Martin will be perrenial all-stars. Now, if one of those guys is indeed a going to be a franchise ass-kicking all-star, then okay. Do it. Anything is forgivable. After all, that's why we traded away our future with Dickerson and Othella to get a (supposed) whiner from Vancouver- becuase he will be a hall-of-fame guard. But I don't think there are guarantees with that. Hey, I went to Cincinnatti for post-grad work. I've watched a lot of Kenyon Martin. But there is no guarantee if he will be a franchise PF. If so, yes, the trade is absolutely worth it. Swallow Reeve's contract, sit him on the bench and find a decent starter while Francis and Swift/Martin form a future championship team. But you can't deny that Cato and Darius Miles could also be absolutely deadly in four years. [This message has been edited by Nolen (edited May 18, 2000).]
ok thecabbage and Nolen you're right. His contract will screw all our future contracts we must sign. And we may never be able to get rid of him. I give. You backed me into a corner. I fold. But hopefully there is something we all can agree on here. Trading for Martin/Swift is tough business. It will hurt to make that trade. I was trying to illustrate that I'm ready for some pain to get into the top 3 picks, because it could likely be a ROY in this draft. Two ROYs in a row is something special. But, Reeves' contract is too much to swallow. you win.
i'm going on the record for the player Clutch is refering to is Othella Harrington. ------------------
Wow...let me reiterate, wow. The Pacer board doesn't hum this well. Anyway some interesting things to consider regarding the Pacers in this scenario. 1.)Croshere will clearly opt out of his small contract this year and has said, quietly, he wants a starting position, unless they win it all this year. 2.)Al Harrington has been somewhat discouraged, internally, about his lack of P.T. and Antonio Davis being moved. 3.)All involved with the Pacers think Jonathan Bender is a future star, which complicates things with both Al and Austin who both play that 3/4 tweener game as does Bender. 4.)Al had his best game as a pro against the Rockets this year and has huge potential as does Austin. 5.)The Pacers have 4.5 million trade exemption(from Davis/Bender deal) that could be used to facillitate a 3 way deal (draft picks, big contracts, base year players, etc.) With this all said, what would the Rockets give up, Mobley?, Cato?, #9 pick? IMO, I would give you both Al and Croshere for Mobley. But Walsh loves 7 footers and Cato is probably on his list especially with Smits and Big Smooth gone next year. http://jonathanbender.8m.com http://alharrington.8m.com ------------------ [This message has been edited by Speed (edited May 18, 2000).]
Was Jahidi White not mentioned in this thread yet... If not I am mentioning him now ------------------ Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things!
OK Clutch, so I will fight my way through this 160+-thread once again to find out which player was mentioned "a few times". ------------------
I would not do popeye's deal with Vancouver, even if it brings Martin or Swift. I can't think of a worse acquisition for the current roster than Reeves. He can't run, he's a very immobile defender in the post, his work ethic is terrible, and, above all else, his contract is ridiculous. He'd be the classic square peg in a round hole with our young speedsters. Why Rudy would even consider trading for him, if in fact he is, is beyond me. ------------------
See what Speed the Pacer fan said... Cato IS 7' tall. We've done it guys. We have some believers!! Tell you what Speed. I'll give you Cato for Croshere and Harrington. Then we've got even more trade bait for the rest of the Summer...dreamcasting. But, we are keeping Mobley.
Bender's P.T. will depend on 3 things. 1.) If he can put on 15 or more pounds this summer to absorb the physical play of the NBA. 2.) How far the Pacers go in the playoffs (i.e. if the finals are in the future then Donnie will try to keep the team exactly as it is, regardless of what he is saying this moment) 3.) Who will be the new head coach/will Bird stay in the front office. As far as how good he will be, it completely depends on him. He has all of the tools to be an incredible/franchise player, but how many times have we seen awesome athletes that tank. The main reason I am so high on Bender is Bird sings his praises at every opportunity. He isn't a guy to blow smoke or embellish things. He called Bender one of the best he has ever seen. The bar has been set extremely high. Only time will tell. I still think nationally he won't get much pub for 2-3 years because he is still raw and has many people who are in front of him who are very good. T. Mac was basically labelled a bust after his 1st year. If he played for the Bulls or the like you would hear his name much sooner. http://jonathanbender.8m.com http://alharrington.8m.com ------------------ [This message has been edited by Speed (edited May 19, 2000).]
Bender is NOT the next KG! Clutch, I would like to ask Cat's question again, applying it to TODAY...."can you tell us whether this guy is on a lottery team or a playoff team?" ------------------ We need some meat in the post!
Hey, this shocker better not have anything to do with Chris Mihm... ------------------ "I don't care how tall the guy is, trade his ass!"
