I think the Knicks and the Clippers were the only 2 teams that didn't have 'legitimate starters' in my calculations - most other teams had a player who had started just about every game - maybe I've missed someone else? Regardless - the numbers aren't THAT much different for the other categories (FG% being the only real difference) - and there's probably been a couple of games transpire between our accounts - a couple of PG 'shockers' could easily influence the total? [my bad on Arenas - I had him at 2spg as well - being last on the list I think I might have overlooked in the previous post!]
Hmmm, a "WELL above average for a starting PG in this league." Ok, stop the kidding. What team are you watching. No really... Thank you for telling us about it, DrNuegebauer.
MacBeth looks at the numbers to paint a picture. He looks beyond the numbers. But rather, uses them as a guide. DrNuegebauer. You take the numbers for face value, then make your conclussions on them exclusively. The problem, is that you don't see the way the stats show up on the court. Yes, a turnover rating of 2.5 vs 3.5 is VERY MUCH DIFFERENT. Even though, A FACE VALUE, they don't seem THAT much different (only 1 turnover per game difference). That's a huge difference ON THE COURT. I forget whose sig says it (solid or Verse), but "Stats suck!" I'll caveat that with "Stats *alone* suck!" Use the stats as guide then look at how it plays out on the court. You will see patterns and tendencies.
Regardless Francis' stats are similar to that of an AVERAGE point guard? Should an AVERAGE point guard receive the max contract and be considered a star and leader for the tearm, especially when he rarely leads his team to solid teamplay on the court? The only thing Francis has ever lead this team to is 4 straight years of lottery picks, and leading the team in TOs on a consistent nightly basis. And it's not even so much that he has a high turnover ratio. It's the fact that he'll atleast have one turnover by dribbling the ball too much to the point where it'll dribble off his foot and out of bounds. It's happened atleast once a game from these past few games. He also fails to lead a fastbreak well, and you'd think after finally being a seasoned veteran he could atleast do that right. He makes the game too difficult for himself and even worse for his teammates, which is precisely what a point guard shout NOT do. I wouldn't even mind so much the high amount of turnovers he has if he was forcing the issue on getting his teammates involved with good passing, but he doesn't even do that. The only times he has done his job in getting his teammates involved were against Detroit, and New Orleans. It's frustrating to watch. He still jacks up bad shots even though he's shooting a piss poor percentage from the field, and despite all that fails to get his teammates involved in helping them get better looks. He also consistently gets lit up on a nightly basis from the other teams point guards, and the fact that we have to rely on Moochie to be our savior when Francis sucks it up doesn't bode too well on the depth we have at the PG position. Francis isn't the only problem the Rockets are facing right now but for a guy who's receiving a max contract and is given the responsibility of being the team leader, he failed to lead the team to anything other then being lottery bound. I'd absolutely love to eat my words later on in the season and watch Francis lead this team to victory but if this is any early indication of the remainder of the season, then I feel it'll be another long season of dissapointment for Rocket fans. Barring Yao playing to his potential and taking over the leadership role (Not likely just yet.), we're stuck relying on an overrated, and overpaid point guard. The season is still young and I'd much rather have to go through these problems early on then later in the season when it counts the most, but for the love of God, please Rockets play smart basketball, with or without Francis.
I remeber when I watched the game against Portland on LP, the Portland commentator used one sentence to sum up Francis game, and I think he hit the nail here: Steve Franics always makes the game harder than it suppose to be. Yes, he makes the game harder for himself and make the game harder for his teammates.
Hey! The quote you used of mine was actually intended to be a discussion about Macbeth's statistics. If you'll note, the only reason I put the stats down was because I believed his to be in error (based on sighting 1.9 spg as the average - whic he concurs it is not!). After my study I came to the conclusion that the numbers aren't THAT much different - that is, my numbers and Macbeths. Perhaps I used a PG or two that he didn't (you'll note that I omitted only Knicks and Clippers from the study as every other team has a PG who has started just about every game this year). I don't agree that Francis' stats aren't THAT much different to the 'average' PG - his are very much different! I totally agree that statistics can only be taken so far, and they can be totally misleading (a player scores 10 points in garbage time on 5/5 shooting to take him to 20 for the game on 10/30 - good game or not? Obviously not!). The problem I have with this concept of 'Rockets player vs player X' is that it is fraught with danger to become a bashing based on a statistical analysis. If it can be proven that our player is statistically better then we hate the stats; if they are statistically worse then we praise the stats! Obviously most people would agree that Francis' on-court performances could be better - yet the team is currently 13-9, something I'm sure we would've all taken at the beginning of the season!
I think your rage colours your judgement here! The 'average' point guard that is being discussed in this thread is actually the 'average' of those who are established starters. People like Charlie Ward or Moochie Norris haven't been factored in here! Francis has lead his team to two winning seasons out of the last 3, sure it was still lottery, but not because we were one of the worst 13 teams in the league, simply because we play in the Western Conference!
I'm still willing to blame most of what Francis has done wrong this season on Van Gundy. (but I'm also willing to give him some of the credit for our wins...) Francis is still a badass, and I wouldn't trade him for anything less than a Kobe or a Tmac - another all-star starting gaurd. Leave it to the users on this board to jump all over him like rabid dogs after he's started poorly barely a quarter of the way into the season.
Then you may ask too much, no one will trade Kobe or T-Mac for Steve Francis unless you are a Houston fan. Steve's trade value will go south when time pass by. When he is getting old and time takes away his athleticism, he will be a below average PG earning max contract.
I'm not sure if this has been pointed out. But if you're going to compare with the "average" player, wouldn't it be better to use the median stat for all categories rather than average? Averages have a nasty tendency to be skewed by outliers. And therefore be very misleading at times.
If a thread that is based on stats alone would not even come close to becoming a "praising" thread...Wouldn't that tell you something? True, some people might bash for the sake of bashing. But others do look beyond the numbers and which are only used to validate their opinion of Francis' play. Regarding your statement, "Francis' on-court performances could be better." His on-court performaces could be a LOT better.
I haven't updated the combined stats to the other 21 games I totalled when Francis faced a starting PG against another team this season but Francis shoots a lower % then his opponent in all categories including FTs. Francis' only statistical category that he leads over his opponents is rebounding and that's the only thing that stands out positively for him. He averages more points but with over 100 attempts combined more then his opponents do. Not tacking on the recent San Antonio game, Francis averages 32 more turnovers then his opponents while averaging 20 less assists thus far. And this is minus the San Antonio game where Tony Parker torched him for 12 more assists and 19 points while shooting a respectable average that was within the flow of San Antonio's offense. Steve's shots last night were back to ISO ball and he ruined any flow of offense the Rockets had at the start of the 3rd quarter. The game already spelled disaster in the last minute of the 1st half though with the Bowen layup and foul, and the last second Tim Duncan jumper, while we failed to score on account of the JJ turnover, and a poor shot previous to that. So no I don't think my judgement is consumed by my anger with him. Stats don't tell the whole story but they definitely back my claim that he's still an average point guard. Heck he's technically below average as a PG considering he shoots a worse % then the AVERAGE point guard, dishes out fewer assists then the AVERAGE point guard, while still managing to average more turnovers then the AVERAGE point guard. The high rebound differencial between him and his opponents thus far have been nice but that's not the statistical category that's most important in the PG role. Some people say it's the offensive structure that limits Francis from dishing out more assists. Then why in his lesser role as a PG does he still have a high turnover ratio? You'd think if he had a lesser role as PG, his turnovers would be down wouldn't you? And I don't care what anyone says, someone that plays comparable to an AVERAGE point guard doesn't deserve a max contract or leadership roles especially when he's lead his team to nothing but lottery picks. Again not all blame can be put on Francis but it doesn't mean any less blame should be taken away from him either. As a leader, and a guy receiving the max, he should burden the most blame then any other player on the team because he does control how the game will be played. Not Yao, not yet.
