The need for the disclaimer is shown by your response. The comparison is the situation of your franchise player not being a team first guy as opposed to a me first type player. All three player are/were to most talented players on their teams but each had issues with trusting their fellow players. Until Jordan learned to trust his teamates, the Bulls were stuck in first round and out playoff appearances. Hakeem would absolutely destroy other teams but we would still lose. Steve's problem is not that he does not share it is that he does not share properly. JVG will fix that but it will be a long process.
steve does not share the ball enough and he is not good enough. he has tremendous trade value and i think we can get two players for him. we are lacking in depth and have redundancy at the guard spot. i don't like the way our team plays offense. steve is not going to change that much. you can bet on it.
What redundacy are you talking about? Moochie?!? Steve's trade value will still be just as good if his numbers stay the same throughout his career. You are fooling yourself any other team in the league would not want Steve. Funny you should say that since those were some of the complaint directed toward Hakeem & Jordan. Hakeem will never pass out of the double team, he tries to do it all by himself. Jordan shoots too much and does not pass the ball enough. He scores 60 points and the Bulls still lose. Jordan ISO offense is not enjoyable. I love both Hakeem and Jordan and applaud their ability to add to their game every year. It takes a dedicated player to put in the work to get better and learn that there are 4 other players on the court with them. But they did not start this until later in their careers.
here is my take on the rockets compared to their real x-men counterparts-- if you know the xmen, even better francis- Wolverine- can possibly be the best at what he does, but still not a team player. Is more suited to be playing by himself but can still do okay in a team while limiting his own abilities. not the greatest leader as his emotions can get the best of him, causing him to force things by pure physicality as opposed to using his head. mobley- Gambit- he's your wildcard player, can be erratic at times and not the best team player, but even though you may think his powers are weak by comparison, he does a pretty good job on the field, making it up by just being athletic and talented, regardless that genetically he wasn't given as much. like wolverine, he is sometimes better off solo, but can also be a team player. jim jackson-Beast, pretty smart and good at what he does, has been on a lot of teams, but not the best at any of his categories, not the stongest, not the most agile, no super amazing abilities, not the smartest. nightcrawler, colossus, professor x beat him in all those categories, BUT he is well rounded in the rest, just enough to get by. cato- Angel (before archangel)- ok, you look at this guy and see a person who has an ability and is clearly a mutant, but you dont know exactly how he uses his abilties on the field. he has no offensive strength and takes up a lot of space but still manages to do ok in the things he does. yao-Iceman- young, does not want to take a leadership role, full of potential. can possibly be the strongest xman, but he keeps himself back. too scared to step up unless he knows he can win. mo- Banshee- kind of an ok guy, but one dimensional, not really a leader but good at talking. his abilities are good but they dont make up for his weaknesses and they are not great in every situation. mooch-Doug aka Cypher, dunno if anyone remembers him, but he was a mutant who was good at languages; he died pretty quickly. Anyway, you wonder why in gods name did he become a mutant and with his powers, still be able to join a team. he has no ability, and he is a liability in battlefield conditions. his abilities are better used off the field. another good comparison for mooch is Toad, who has abilties but will get beat every single time against regular opponents. I may be a nerd, but at least i can say ive worked for marvel comics, so im not just a fan of the old comics.
Uh... As I explained, this was in no way a Francis bashing thread. For one thing, I initially intended to do a whole team comparison, because given the effects that our team style can have on individul player performance, I felt the most interesting apsect would be to see who among our players measures up relatively better, ie is Yao much better than the average center, or is Cato much worse, etc. In other words, based on the numbers, not on our subjective opinions, who in fact are our better players. But by the time I got underway with Francis I realized that this was simply too much work to do all at once, so decided to do one a day, and it was only started with Francs because he was the one I did first in my intended team analysis. But how you take that by simply posting the black and white numbers indicates an intent to bash Francis speaks a lot for your perspective, IMO. If I say a fact...like my neighbour is 6'2" tall, whereas the average male is 5'9", am I seeking to praise him? bash him? I made absolutely no comment, just posted the black and white facts. If those facts had been more in Francis's favor, the intent of his thread would, it is assumed, have been to praise him? If you can't take the numbers as anything but criticism, maybe the criticism isn't the problem... As for myself, while I am still not going to really comment, I'd say that there are many ways to look at these numbers in a less negative light than many here are doing. And I will get Cat's numbers done later today, and again, there is no preconceived bash or prasie in mind...I just want to look at the numbers objectively to see what they can tell us, rather than continue basing all of our opinions on what we think we see. I was a huge fan of Bill James growing up, and this was an effort to do that kind of objective anaysis with the Rockets, nothing more, nothing less.
if it's all about the numbers, then my point would be: can we get a point guard with comparable numbers and another player in return for steve? two players for the price of one? more team-oriented players?
Team Production by Position Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER* PG 15.9 .431 5.3 26% 6.2 6.4 4.2 0.4 3.3 18.0 13.9 SF PG 15.5 .492 5.1 24% 4.9 7.2 2.8 0.1 3.0 19.7 18.2 OP PG 0.4 -.061 0.2 2% 1.2 -0.8 -1.4 0.3 -0.3 -1.8 -4.3 Net Macbeth, thanks for the number. These numbers also show SF is in a deficit position against his opponents as opposed to a comparison against an average player. HE is being outscored; shooting a poorer %, taking less shots; turning over the ball more; passing less; take less FTs; and making less of his shots inside.
Define the role of the point guard, please. Then we will know the criteria that you are using to evaluate. Thank you.
anyways, i really want to c francis at SG now. because it s a waste of talent to put him at 1. he tries too much to get his teammates involved sometimes, and he seems lost to find his own offense.
You can't do an analysis of a player's worth based on a quarter of a season's analysis. Your use of statistics and eloquent posting style lead people to believe that you're speaking nothing but the gospel truth about a player's worth. You have posted objective facts, sure, and I'm honestly interested in seeing how they play out. And if you just left it at that, I wouldn't have posted. But you've also posted your opinion that this tiny sample size of games will lead to an accurate evaluation of "who in fact are our better players" and a player's "worth", as if 20 games worth of statistics would demonstrate objective answers to those subjective questions. Clever, if misleading, sophistry. And based on reading your posts here, I know that you didn't go into this without an idea as to the type of response you'd get. You're a very intelligent, savvy individual. No, I don't think you intended to bash Francis with your post, but I'm certain you intended to lead people to believe that his value as a player could be determined by his 20 game statistical contribution this season. It can't, and Francis's slow start this season is no more indicative as to his future production than Jimmy Jackson's current 38% shooting is indicative about JJ's ability to shoot the ball. Bill James analyzes complete seasons and full careers of baseball players, not 40 game samples of their work. You can't judge a hitter's worth on his first 100 ABs in a season, or a pitcher on his first 8 starts. The most you can say is that the guy is off to a hot, or cold, start.
Stop kidding yourself buddy. Stop being a HOMER , but try to be partial. In Stephan, the Suns fans think he's one of the best point guard also. The New Orleans Hornets fans think so highly of thier point guard. I can name you a list of gaurds at this point whom I think is better than Stevie.
I think this is a great idea. We all realize that it has to be taken in context. We all realize that this team is learning a new system and we won't realize their full potential until later in the season. The number do have value though to help measure the players progress against the rest of the league. It is an interesting excercise not a end-of-the-world prophecy. I look forward to reading the rest of the numbers.
1) With respect, your initial comment about this being an intended Francis bashing thread is just completely off, and the quotes you use to back it up are from a subsequent post, nit the one you initially charged with said intent.
MacBeth, I probably misphrased my initial post slightly. I didn't intend to state or imply that you were Francis-bashing or were anti-Francis. Rather, that your interesting choice of a thread topic "let's compare the Rox starters over 20 games of the season to the mean statistical average for a starter" led to a bash-ridden thread (not you bashing, but others took the opportunity to do so). I haven't read your thread "The Trouble with Stevie", but I remember the Star Trek episode "The Trouble with Tribbles". Funny stuff. If your thread was anything like the episode, I'm sure it was excellent.
Steve Francis is not a good PG because he's not a good passer. Great PG's see the court, know where their teammates are and get them the ball in good situations. How hard is that to understand? Too hard for some.
Please...no more of this "Jordan didn't play team ball." Any general manager that would trade Jordan because he didn't play "team ball" would be the poster child for NBA biggest blunders. He was a shooting guard. His job was to score! He had very bad players his first 4 or 5 years. Are you saying that Jordan and "scrubs" of the 84-88 team would have won a championship if Jordan has passed more? Please.... Think about it. He was a good player in the NCAA, but tore up the league the moment he steped on the court. A bad night? 40 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assist, 3 steals. His best year staticically? That would be 88-89. 32ppg, 53FG%, 85FT%, ***8rpg***, ****8apg****, and 3.6 TO. Is that "not playing team ball?" They got knocked out by the Pistons defense year after year until 91. Not because he "didn't play team ball" or "did trust his teammates." Spare me!! The point is. Jordan knew how the play team ball, due to Dean Smith's program at UNC. But that was not his forte. Scoring was. Later, scoring and defense. But he always knew how to play the team game, it's just that they would lose more often than not if he gave the ball to his below average players he had on his team (reminds me of Akeem from 88-91 after Sampson left). Yes, even Jordan need some talent around him. The situation is NOT THE SAME in regards to Francis.
Listen. You say you are not comparing. Well I will. A "Francise player" has a great burden on his shoulders. How much of the burden should go on Francis shoulders? The same as Hakeem? The same as Jordan? Or less? How about a LOT less? Problem. Jordan/Hakeem COULD DESTROY his competition and still lose. Francis CAN NOT DESTROY his competion and still lose.
That sounds like a max contract player to me. If I were the boss, I'd expect a lot more from someone who was making 20% of the entire payroll. Rockets need to push the burden of making the playoffs on Steve's shoulders. There's no reason to put it on Yao's because there's still 2 more years to see if Yao deserves max contract money or not. Time is running out of this shell game for Steve because his trade value will go down a whole lot if he is 28 years old without even a single trip to the playoffs and making max contract money. The last thing the Rockets want is another cap anchor who they can't even trade a rack of basketballs for. Look at the Heat with Eddie Jones. Everyone freaking knows the Heat have been trying to trade that guy to any team out there just to unload the salary. Look at Brian Grant. Look at Gugliotta. CD better watch his back if Les Alexander has to cut checks to another "Eddie Jones" aka Steve Francis. Trade him if he can't get it done this season before he morphs into Eddie Jones.
