I don't see how we've been refuted; I'm worried that alot of folks may have been taken with the allure of something shiny and new that will lead us to the mystical promised land. We don't like replacing an average quality (C) offensive guy that has a slightly above average quality (B-) defense, who is young and improving, with two players that will be on the downside of their careers when we make title runs, both of which have a D in one aspect of their game. The age-old maxim in trades is that the team that comes out with the best talented players always wins. A good starter is worth more than a few adequate bench players in return. Nothing against the new guys, but if they were valuable, they'd have been retained by other teams at a higher price. If you want to be civil, we can talk. Otherwise, please put me on the ignore list too.
For those who are interested, here's a thread where I summarized HP's points about Ginobili. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61942 Go to the next to last post. The post above that has the link to the original HP thread, if you are interested. Sorry for the interruption. Please continue your nice discussions.
You can disagree but that is completely false. I think past contracts do dictate what we do now and in the future. Disagree. There have been many discussion in the past week and there were no conclusive evidence either way. The thougth that Posey gives u a complete package is ludicrous. He is a good (not great) defensive player who has avg offensive game. If I could, I would have subbed Posey out in offense myself last year!
Who here is saying Adrian Griffin is better than James Posey? My reason for passing on Posey is six-fold. 1.) Posey would have been overpaid 2.) Rockets already have four overpaid players. Some would say five. 3.) Rockets needed to keep some wiggle room for the future. This team hasn't even made the playoffs yet...no way we should lock ourselves in with the current team until they prove they can make the playoffs. 4.) I don't have the nerve to suggest that an owner should just pull money out of his ass to give players whatever they ask for. It's not my money. Besides, Les has never really been known as a "cheap owner," which leads me to believe that several other owners in the same financial situation as the Rockets would have also passed on Posey. 5.) We have a ridiculously shallow team. Signing Posey for that much would have prevented us from becoming any deeper. You'd think with the injury-prone seasons the Rockets have gone through in recent years that fans would understand the importance of having a deep bench...apparently it hasn't gotten through to some. 6.) I believe Posey was going to be a small part of our team's success anyway. I believe some people are overinflating the impact he would have on the Rockets. Our team's overall success lies on the shoulders of Ming and Francis. Posey's impact pales in comparison. So, as you can see my reasons for passing on Posey have nothing to do with me thinking Posey sucks or Adrian Griffin being better. I don't think any of these reasons are unreasonable. ps. I think some of you should wait until you are sure the Rockets are done dealing this offseason before going into full-fledged bash mode; otherwise, you may end up looking pretty stupid.
careful?? No, I just laughed at him for getting schooled by Cat. It was fun, but it was not a prediction, short of me expecting a ROY shooting guard to being able to drive on Mobley or shoot lights out. My scouting was in there, but only to one poster who I like to talk to. I also never bashed Gino anywhere in the NBA Dish threads, nor predicted a bust of any kind...not even close. The exposing his dribble thing I recall in an NBA Dish thread. Maybe I said it in the other. Anyhow, that was based on me responding the Spurs fans asking about what I look for in seeing a player for the first time. imo, driving ability often does not translate to the NBA, facing much better speed and defense. His driving ability is not ROY or star quality, imo. and I doubt I said more than that. His driving is about equal to Posey, benefitting from Duncan's presence. but, that's just my opinion. Ohhh, you can still take solace in the fact that many people had to back off their ROY predictions The guy is very flashy and fun to watch, and he has a cockiness that is refreshing and totally not expected from me. But if he were in Memphis and Battier was in SA...Battier would be getting more hype from TNT announcers.
So we agree that the Rockets probably aren't making a title run for a couple more seasons. So, why sign a C/B- player to a large, long-term contract at this time? Why not just take our time and wait for the right player to come along at the right price. It's called looking to the future.
James Posey is 26 years old and has been injury free. Part of developing a great team is chemistry - yes, even with role players. You can't just throw in a mish mash of players and expect them to win. The Lakers played SA tough but they really missed Rick Fox. The Rockets may be 3 or 4 years away but how much better will they be if they keep a core 5 together for that period. Chemistry counts.
And you take the consequence of past mistakes and consider that when you make further moves. It doesn't help to think "what if I can undo that..." but it will also hurt if you simply ignore the past. For example, if you found a good deal on a car, you would normally jump on it. But now if you are deep in debt, you have to put the charge on your 23% credit card, it makes the deal not attractive at all. The bad contracts Rox had and the threat of lux tax make the MLE-for-Posey deal not appealing at all. The management picked up Pike and AG, for much cheaper price and shorter term. Not only they fit our need, but also substantially lowered our risk compared with signing Posey.
I think it has been made crystal clear that Posey-like sf are easy to pick up any year. And clearly he is not a bargain at this price. what is wrong with saving a few mil every year if you can always get same player down the road whenever you need for the same price or evern lower?
You Posey enthusiasts are going to have to answer to roll call by midseason and you all better raise your hands cause basketball scouting remedial school will be in full session just for you boyyyyyyy! ; D
Good points, until the funny little jab at the end! Answer: To build team chemistry for our championship runs. Also, I reiterate I believe he really took off once he found his niche (he stunk for the first few games for us, trying to fit in I think). He's still improving too, and I am in the camp that saw an improvement in his 3-pt set shot towards the end. Or maybe that was part of the confidence he gained that he belonged. Finally, it's 4 years, and MLE, not what I call large and long-term. He'll be tradable in the last year for his expiring contract, if need be. Three years from now, when the onerous contracts of MoT, Mooch, and Cato are nearing completion, we could then put the final piece in, and we will have had most of our core develop some chemistry together. I think we just have a honest disagreement over how good Posey could have been for us.
I dont have the time or patience to read this whole thread but incase it hasent been said he singed for 2 years vet min. "Free agent Griffin signs with Rockets" DMN link (must registar)
On point 1, my point is you have to assess each situation independently. The context for this is you neither sign Posey simply because not doing so loses KT & #2, nor not sign him simply because you have been burned before--you have to assess the situation (team needs, Posey's value, contract, impact on on total contracts) independent from those prior events. On point 2, you may disagree, but if you look at market value contracts for free agents comparable to Posey in talent, current skill, potential, & age--there is little doubt it is within reasonable range. That is why another team even more stocked at his position put it on the table. On point 3, what is ludicres is you misrepresenting my opinion on this. I didn't say Posey was "complete". What I did say is he is not exploitable on one end or the other like his cheaper replacements and simply a different caliber of roll player. He does have the potential to be a "complete" package role player in the mold of Bryan Russell, Rick Fox, & Doug Christie--in fact he is arguably more talented than any of these guys who were/are the hard to find well rounded roll players that thrive off of stars. Posey is like a 6 offensive SF and 7 defensive/rebouding SF. His shooting isn't near is bad as you proclaim--his FG, 3%, FT% are all in the ball park of our terrific offensive backcourt and his %s only got better getting more accustomed to our team. Compare that (6O/7DR SF) with AD who is a 7 defensive/rebounding SF and 1 offensive SF, or Pike who is 7 offensive SF (fine shooter--but nothing more) and 2 defensive/rebounding SF. So compared to these guys Posey is awefully complete, even if he has some ways to go to be a complete player in the more abstract sense though he does have the potential to where as his replacements at their age/development have little room to really get better in their weaknesses. As I said before if this was fatantasy football Pike/AG is probably equal to Posey, maybe even a tad better (though Posey rebounds better than either)--but of well, in this league we need guys who can play competitively on both ends and Posey was only one of 4 Rockets last year who could hang in this way.
Couldn't agree more. 4 years MLE is not big money, it is not even in the same ballpark of what we payed for (at most) comparably accomplished Mo and the career back-up Cato, and they didn't have offers elsewhere. Ok--here is where we disagree but we can leave it at this. I don't think 26 year old players with Posey's current skills and potential are so easy to find for the MLE. Usually non-star but solid all around wings (upper tier roll players) like Bryan Russell, Sean Elliott, Doug Chrisite or Robert Horry are drafted (it is hard to find Russell, Horry caliber players mid-late 1st round but it does happen) or you have to trade for them. Yes some times you can get a Rick Fox (who took less money just to play for the LAL) or Mario Elie while giving up nothing--but that is by far more the exeception than the rule. As far as this list the only guy mentioned using mildly optimistic projections Posey likely couldn't equal as a player is Elliott (borderline allstar), but he certainly could easily be better than or equal to the rest of them. Fact Posey's age is right with the core of our team means we also miss a chance for him to grow LT with our guys. Finally, just look at KT's deal, Rasha's deal, PJ's deal, Dre's deal, and Maggette's deal, all over 40 million (well PJ's is a brutal 34 over 4)--22.7 mil for 4 years for a servicable current starter with substantial upside is reasonable market value, that is why Memphis/West offered it. It is especially troublesome we have not/did not match because without him we have a horrible 3 spot--with little hope for someone to grow into that role, Boki is already 23, we can be optimistic, but the truth is it is less than 50/50 the guy ever warrents a nonemergency start in an NBA game--to go along with a very weak 4 spot. Even bad team are now going to slice and dice our forwards--and now Yao, SF and CM will have to play harder and more minutes and more frustrating minutes because after them we about only have the specialists that other teams take advantage of by leaving them in more than a few minutes.
You might want to tell that to Mario Elie, Avery Johnson, John Starks, and other players like that. You rip these players for playing in 3 leagues before they're 30, I consider these battle tested players that didn't get a chance and worked hard until they got one. Players like these can be good role players in a starting line-up. <b>In 1993, they had Hakeem, had missed the playoffs once, and did not lose their a superior player before they got Elie, who was better than Griffin ever has been and ever will be unless he mysteriously discovers some offense at age 30. </b> Funny that you say that, because Mario didn't start hitting it big until he was around the age of Griffin. So for you to say he's better then Griffin ever was is funny since you're looking at Mario as a finished product, and not Mario at the same point in his career as Griffin. Mario wasn't a great offensive player, he happened to be a good outside shooter. Revisionist history just for the sake of bashing this Rockets pick-up. <b>Is it the end of the world that Posey is gone? no. But I like the Rockets lineup much better with him starting than with Griffin, and on a purely basketball level, NOt one NBA GM, and maybe nobody except for maybe Adrian Griffin would disagree.</b> Yes they would, because those GMs would rather take Griffin for cheap then pay big bucks for Posey. So you can complain all you want about how bad Griffin is compared to James Posey or whatever, but in the end Griffin is a good pick-up.
So with AG instead of JP we are unrefuttably cheaper, with JP instead of AG (which we controlled b/c of full Bird rights) we are unrefuttably better. Valuewise is AG better? It is all educated (or uneducated) guesses really. We can say to our knowledge no other team offered AG a deal and his own defense needed team showed little interest for the min and Memphis could have had AG for a million instead of JP for around 5. AG's deal might be a better value short term or long term, might not if the 26 year old Posey gets any better at all he is not just a good, but an outstanding value, at 5/6 mil year--we will just have to see on this one. Anyway, those on both sides of the Posey debate need to let it go for now, Posey is a Grizzle, and Rockets need to look in other directions to improve. For fun down the line maybe we will reflect on the Posey decision--right now it is a waiste of time, emotion and energy, end of story.
Yep! Look at it this way. To compliment the hole at PF (Griffin) they've added another hole at SF (Griffin). Wonderful...
