posey brought heart, thats what i loved, Agriff brings hustle and heart too, which is awsome, but not the offensive guy pose was. maybe he might get some shots, who knows! pose took up some offensive slack when francis doesnt shoot well or yao was out. none of yall can disagree with me
LOL! I think they were talking about RIET. Thinking a wee bit too much of yourself, aren't you JR. you called the thread "insane," "ludicrous" and Rudy a "moron" not me. btw: RIET and I actually know each other, so we're not saying anything that would be taken as offensive on a BBS. Boy, show your true colors don't you. Don't let me annoy you so much, JR. Just put me on your ignore list. very simple. <B>For the record, I called Rigaudeau Garbage, not Ginobili</b> I like the complete lie about Ginobili "not amounting to anything." "Being a bust." You are confusing it with me dogging Rigaudeau after Mobley called him "garbage." Get your facts straight. post my thread, if you want to say I called Gino a bust. I said Gino will be no ROY or a Star. He suprised me beyond his preseason, Euro Finals and WC games I say, but not by ROY standards. Saying "Ginobili will be no star or ROY" is much different than "Gino will not amount to anything." I was comparing Gino to guys like Caron Butler, Yao Ming and Gooden's preseason games. That said: Rigaudeau proved to be garbage...didin't he. LOL! Besides, I went to the game, and posted after it in joyous rocking support for the Cuttino burning Gino that game. It's fun rooting raucously for the Rockets, you know...you should try it sometimes, and stop getting so mad at the Rockets and the fans who back them. <b>bottomline</b> You will be completely wrong about Les if we use the full MLE. Oh, and Piat + Griff > Posey
So, Les fired Rudy to strap JVG over a measly few million. I don't see it. Les has always paid well, and never shown to be cheap. So, I can hold you to this, right? You will agree that if we use the whole MLE, then the talk of Les holding JVG back is not true....that the decisions were JVG.
Perhaps, but the real comparison is...... Posey + Rice + Hawk > Rice + Pike + AD We simply should have eaten the 2 million difference and gone with the first combination if basically forced to choose between Pike/AG and Posey. I have said over and over Posey + Pike + min vet 4 (instead of AG if we had JP) together would have made for a realistic but outstanding post-JVG signing offseason--oh well. Sure, it is a moot point because you should build and modify your team (or pick a mate) based on your own strengths and weaknesses, not based on what your neighbor does or does not have. Yes, Posey was marginal starter or terrific 6th man whose prime coordinates great with Yao/SF and whom with a little modest improvement in his offensive efficiency (dude was only 26 and just found himself on a half way decent team finally) becomes one of those upper echelon, hard to find, expensive, fixture role players. Plus now we don't have a "marginal starter" at the 3. We have an atrocious NBA caliber starter at the 3 to go along with a pretty weak 4 spot. As for the bench, again, JP, Rice and Hawkins is stronger than Rice, Pike and AG whether you want to look at it as the starters or bench, except in emergencies where Hawkins would have to play more than a hand full of minutes. Unfortunately this is a sucky debate to get into and the result won't be clear for some time (game over rhetoric my ass). If I am right, not having Posey bites us and limits us from reaching what was a close to our reach even this year (say a competitive 1st round loss as a 6th or 7th seed). So I'd rather be honest about my opinion and be wrong, than right in this matter, and that sucks!
It's not that simple. I suspect you know this and are just toying with us. First, there's length of contracts for each of the players you sign with the MLE, none of which apparently we will sign to four-year, I'm sure, so the total outlay is cheaper. Second, let's theoretically say we have four spots left to fill on the roster. You could sign Posey and sign three others to league minimum, or let Posey go, use his $$ to split it up among three, and sign one at minimum. In case a) you would still need to pay a certain minimum for the other three players, let's just say $1M. That's $5M + 3x$1M = $8M. In case b) you get three players for the MLE $5M, and use the remaining roster slot for a $1M player. That's only $6M. The point being, that in theory, the owner does save money if he divides up the MLE.
This is a fact neither of us will admit unless absolutely necessary. TKO my butt. The only thing I'll concede is we still have that $1.5 million to spend. 2 more Adrian Griffins does nothing for our team. We might as well kept TMo.
To all of you people that are already saying " This isn't enough of a 'SPLASH,'" just remember in 93 the Rockets picked up a veteran that had similar stats, especially in their early years, for a second round draft pick... I dont even need to say his name, but Mario Elie made one HUGE difference... I really think some of you on here would be somewhat happy that you won the lottery, but, in two minutes you'd complain about not hitting the powerball for the super jackpot... sheesh folks
In 1993, they had Hakeem, had missed the playoffs once, and did not lose their a superior player before they got Elie, who was better than Griffin ever has been and ever will be unless he mysteriously discovers some offense at age 30. It's nice to re-live the past, but lighting doesn't strike that often with retread swingmen. Is it the end of the world that Posey is gone? no. But I like the Rockets lineup much better with him starting than with Griffin, and on a purely basketball level, NOt one NBA GM, and maybe nobody except for maybe Adrian Griffin would disagree.
first off, where is it written that Hawkins has any more or less chance of making the team? Also, I have said many times that I would have matched Posey. But alas...it's not that big of a deal to me if we keep getting vets. Not following you. You do not build with a blind eye to your opponents. After the Lakers beefed up, all the top teams went drastically scurrying to match. It's a mix at looking at your team, and responding to opponents. Posey could help out a lot of the 16 playoff teams, as a 2-3, but apparently not at the money he was asking. Dallas could use him. Kings w/o Turkoglu could use him. just for starters. T-2, I disagree. It is not about length of contract. The argument that Les is not paying is about a Luxury Tax hit for one year. Rice's expiring contract drops us out of the zone for awhile, after this year. Also, don't add $3m in 3 players to Posey's $5m, then say I have to stuff 3 of my guys into $5m. That's not what is happening. Griff was signed for $750K per year...and that was not part of the MLE. If we max the MLE, it will be for just one other player. So, using your forumla, I'd be at $7m, not $6m.
good job spotting the rigadeau garbage, i'm happy for you. i'm not confusing anything - you jumped all over Ginobili after half of a game in your continuing defense of Threads Mobley. And as anyone with a brain now knows, and anyone with a little bit of savvy could have seen coming from a mile, or half a preseason game, away, GINOBILI is significantly better than MOBLEY, period, and while he may not be a superstar, it is certainly not an overstatement to say Ginobili is a budding star. I assumed it was the group of logical posters you have been assaulting, of which I am one, that was being "TKOed." Whether it's RIET or the larger group or anyone else for that matter, my point is valid - your "argument" stinks. Money drove this decision.
That is a major overstatement. CM was equal to or better than Manu in just about every stat--plus he scored 18 PPG while Manu was at like 8PPG. CM is certainly better than Manu right now (or at least last year), CM would have started for the Spurs last year--while Manu was behind SJ & Bowen at the 2/3. Maybe Manu will be better next year or the year after, maybe not, we will see. People get inflated perceptions of the Spurs guards and perimeter players b/c they play with a guy as dominant and defense grabbing as TD. One other thing about Manu, the dude is no Spring chicken (he is 26), Mobley is only like 22 months older. I am not saying we won't at some point be better than Mobley--but it is far from a sure thing, and those that think that vastly underrate Mobley.
The TKO statement is stupid. I do not believe nor want to be associated with it...nor do I think the original poster was being serious. Take the TKO statement to the people who said it. Leave me out of it, or you are just showing some silly BBS personality complex. JR, You are just wrong. Post the thread. I wasn't all over his case as "bust" or "will amount to nothing." You're just wrong. You are confusing it with Rigaudeau. I did enjoy Cuttino burning him. And Gino has impressed me more than what I saw in the World Championships, the Euro Final Four that I saw, and that preseason game. So, I have corrected my take on him. Not much, though. But I never predicted the guy a "bust" or "will never amount to anything." quit lying. For all of October, there was a running thread in NBA Dish about Gino and Nachbar with Spurs fans. They were calling him ROY material and a star. That is what many of us were responding too. I do not think he is a budding Star...you do. I think he is good, but closer to an older Shane Battier playing with the MVP than the budding star crowd. Maybe it's a semantic thing, if you would just see that I was comparing him to claims of ROY and All-Star. Some Spurs fans call him a better defender than Bowew??? Oh, and JR, get off the "you were assaulting" people schtick, to. You called posters "insane" and "ludicrous." and now "anyone with half a brain" knows Gino is mutliple times the player Mobley is. Maybe it's a semantic thing again, but how can Gino be "multiple times" better than Mobley in one sentence but not already a star, rather just a "budding star." You're all over the map....don't let emotions sacrifice your basketball scouting abilities. That always leads to bad scouting. btw: my argument is not that money drove this decision....my argument is Piat + Griff > Posey get it straight! My other argument is that money drove the decision for 16 playoff teams to pass on making Posey a key role player. You still have no answer for that jab! Jab jab jab jab KAM KAM KAM JAB KAM KAM wonderful spam, wonderful spam. We still have $2.5m in the MLE to spend, and the $1.5m exception. Griffin signed for a league minimum exception.
I start to find it annoying that some people just keep posting BS, especially after their argument has been refuted again and again. People, think before you talk and listen to other people's argument! This argument of our letting K. Thomas go for nothing only comes out of the mouth of an r****ded. It doesn't matter what we do, we are not going to offer him 50mil for 6 years, so in any case, he will be let go. What does it have to do with what we should do from now on? Sunk cost are sunk cost and just put it behind. Right now, the best decision is not to keep Posey. Signing bad contracts in the past does not give you an excuse to sign another bad contract. Ok, you will say Posey deserve MLE, then just read the post in the past two weeks, and people have explained clearly why signing Pike and AG is better deal.
When you are good enough to compete for the top you might try to limit the damage specifically from an individual like Shaq or TD, but at our point we need to get a lot better than a host of WC teams to even think about this. Basically, if you address your general weaknesses it is one of the same as improving your match-ups with those ahead of you. With Posey our forward pair was the weak link of our team though our 4 spot was the shakier one, w/o Posey we have gaping holes at both forward spots just about any NBA team should be able to exploit. To support Yao, SF and CM we need to surround them with the hard to find upper tier role players that could grow with them--like JP (or a Rick Fox, or a young Bryan Russell, or Doug Christie, those teams sure worked to keep those guys through their prime)--not the exploitable, single diminsion, short term role players that come a dime a dozen and allow their opponents to cheat on (not cover) or exploit (rip on D) them one end or another. Dallas has Finley and Dirk who can play at the 3 when they need a starting quality player there and have Najera (and maybe the rookie Howard) for adequate support. Think about this--the guy who we may count on replacing Posey in the starting line-up wasn't even thought highly enough from the Mavs to warrent an NBA vet minimum contract. They obviously felt there current players were much better and their younger guys had a lot more upside--and this from a team with defensive struggles which is AG's supposed fortee. Now I am not against the AG signing, after all it was for the min--but anyone who thinks he is the same caliber of starter or bench player or anything as the guy who we felt was worth KT and a #2 AND who a division rival offered a full MLE 4 year deal is sadly mistaken.
HP, Maybe if you go into greater detail on the salary slots, I will see your point better (I hadn't realized the MLE was not used on Griff but even at $750K I don't think it invalidates my point). It still seems to me it is more likely Les comes out ahead this way. If it's just $1M-$2M, he may perhaps avoid all luxury tax penalties. Btw, glad we agree on Posey, even though you don't seem to mind losing him. On the Manu thing, you were careful to not paint yourself in a corner on that thread (i.e. you didn't say he was garbage), but at the same time you really trash-talked in that thread. His exposing the ball would prevent him from driving, blah blah blah. I enjoyed you dishing it to the Spurs die-hards at the time, but found that recollection all the more painful when Manu started making TNT announcers notice. Oh, I like Eggs, Bacon, Spam, Sausage, Spam, Baked Beans and Spam without the Spam in it.
Whatever. Dallas preferred Josh Howard, a late 1st round rookie, over Griffin. And he's our new starting SF? Backup- fine. Starter- ridiculous.
Sorry if we came across as one of them r****deds. I find it annoying find others post annoying--if you don't like the bantering, don't bother reading or put all those with a different opinion on your ignore list. OK, finally some substance from this fellow. Yes I completely agree we don't make a move based on past baggage/deals. Funny how so many people bring up bad moves regarding Mooch, Cato and Mo to be gun shy on this deal for a different player in a different situation. In the latter case (Posey) we are talking about a shorter deal than all of them, one for less yearly money than Cato/MoT, one for a more proven NBA starter than Mooch/Cato (either way on Mo versus JP at the time), and in the one case where another team--let alone a division foe--felt the player was worth the contract we have an opportunity to match on. No it is not. Might be the money saving move--but it definitely hurts us as a BB team in the near and long term, and it is a long shot at best the 2-4 mil per year saved with these SF player shuffles will make the difference in 2-3 years on a player better than JP. Signing bad contracts should not color your decisions regarding independent situations--I thought you understood this...... "Sunk cost are sunk cost and just put it behind." [/QUOTE] It has been established Posey's contract is within the range for 2nd (non-rookie, open market) contracts for players of his caliber/age/potential. You can look at league wide contract figures, or you can look at Jerry West. Given he also plays our weakest position both in current skill and potential (long term) [taking him out of the equation]--it makes the decision look worse. Now for the record I had mentioned weeks ago based on a fairly thorough review of plausible FAs the best we could do would be to try to replace Posey with Nailon, Russell or Griffin--but all had major drawbacks and none are close to replacing what Posey does in 1 package, so don’t act like we (those in favor of a match) have been bumbling around and making excuses as we go. Now those who are used to fantasy football where AG can be subbed in for D and Pike can be subbed in for O after each basket, foul, TO or defensive rebound--I can see how they think the new Pike/AD combination is more formidable than JP. I’ll also recommend to these folks to be sure to go get the Sunday Ticket for all your Rocket games next year.
