No no no, you misunderstand. I'm not saying Gay will even be half the player Kobe is. I posted the numbers to show how ridiculous the claim that "Battier is a better player than Gay will ever be" based on someone watching him during his rookie season on a team that has gone nowhere. How can you judge someone's future like that? I was never suggesting that Gay will be just like Kobe just because their rookie numbers were similar.
I'm sick of hearing about the glue guy. The future ambassador of the league. This guy didn't even start for one of the worst teams in the league Memphis, and because we have two of the top ten players in the league he is now God. Love his hustle and ability to flop, but this guy has serious limitations. Memphis maxed out on what you can get for a back up player in essence two players that were picked in the lottery.
COME ON PEOPLE seriously........... by the time Rudy Gay developed into that "third all star" that we need.......... the other two wouldn't be all stars any more. I thought the reason we got Battier was because we wanted to "win now". I don't think Battier is our problem, I think our problem is at point guard. Shane gave us 82 games, and played hard every game every play. You don't trade that away. If we do we take a big step back. Shane and Chuck Hayes aren't here to put up big numbers. Shane wasn't brought here for his offense, however, if called upon to do so Shane could easily be a 20 point per night guy. He just doesn't get the shots.
CriscoKidd, yeah i agree. Battier's offense is easy to replace. Like I say, "for whatever reason" Yao did not play his best, or close to it. imo, we do not have the trade value on this team or capspace or high draft picks to create a championship team WITHOUT first Yao playing his best in the playoffs. It all starts with him, and trading Battier is simply running in place. Battier won't deliver someone good enough to make up for Yao not playing well. And when Yao plays well, dominately, then Battier becomes a perfect fit.
No. What we need is a player that FLAT OUT refuses to lose when the heat is on. A guy like Mario Elie or (love em or hate em - and despite the fact he quit on us,) a Vernon Maxwell type. This current Rockets team reminds me of the the pre-Duncan Spurs; talented but soft when it counts. Could Mike James have been that player?
I agree with your disagreement. Battier comes to play hard every night... I don't think you can replace that. He's definitely ONE of the many reasons we improved so much from last year.
Agreed Battier's mediocre offense is easy to rep.ace. I don't think T Mac and Yao, even if he plays well, can carry the offense in the playoffs when none of the other three through 7 or 8 can get their shot reliably, much less under playoff pressure.. We need another scorer badly.. How to get him if even Battier plus say the 1rst won't do it? The subset of players, especially scorers who can be JVG guys,is a further limiatation.
You can trade the rockets team with San Antonio team for that matter. Everything is under your control, just move there,.
how about package Battier, Allston, 1st pick and Sura's contract for Bibby and then use MLE to sign Mo Peterson or 1/2 MLE on James Posey. Mo Pete & Posey both "makes the 3's and plays great D" and we upgrade Rafer to Bibby. Deal?
It was a mistake upgrading the 3 spot anyways, that should be Tmacs primary position Battier has good value trade him and bring help in more important areas and try to pair Tmac with an athletic 2 gaurd like Pietrus. Tmac/Pietrus + ShaneBattierUpgrade would be the best way to improve the overall roster and could give us a chance to remove Juwans contract.
And he can be one of the biggest reason we improve next year by bringing in more talent and using free agency to fill his void. For example if you could sign Posey why exactly would you want Battier unless we rid ourselves of Van Gundy. First we need to see whos coaching before you decide to build the team.
Can't remember if I already posted this in this thread, and I don't feel like looking, so here goes... Battier + Spanoulis for Maggette First of all, it DOES work financially. We do it because we were the best defensive team in the league (statistically) and we still couldn't crack the second round of the playoffs. WE NEED MORE SCORING OPTIONS, and not just 3 point shooters. Maggette is the high-energy slasher we've been missing...a guy that isn't afraid to take it in strong and get to the line (he goes about 9 times per game and shoots around 82%). It's my personal opinion that his presence would make a vast and immediate positive impact on the way the offense operates. The Clippers might do it for a few different reasons. For one, they were having a falling out with Maggette toward the trading deadline last season and couldn't manage to get him moved for anything. They may still be looking to ship him out. Factor in the fact that just about every team in the NBA would/should be interested in getting their hands on Battier (very good salary for his impact), and the trade starts to look more plausible, if not possible. Then consider the Clippers point guard situation. Cassell is aging and Livingston is out with his horrid injury. Daniel Ewing is servicable at best. Now I know Spanoulis hasn't shown anything yet, but CD said there was a lot of interest in him at the trade deadline. Perhaps one of those teams was the Clippers, and if so, I could see this trade going down. Don't get me wrong. I really love what Shane brought to the team this year, but there are major flaws in the make up of the team, and Shane is one of the few (and maybe THE only) attractive contracts we have to work with. You have to give up something to get something back.
I think we do have to think about trading Battier if it helps us upgrade one of our needs. Doing this would move t-mac back to his natural position at the 3. If he needs to be traded to bring in a starting PF, PG or proven 3rd scorer then you have to trade him, since he is pretty much a luxury.
There is a serious problem with a player like Battier in the playoffs. His great effort and hustle plays diminish in value because everyone is playing as hard (OK maybe not Tmac ) as he does every night in the regular season. Harpring looked like a much better player than Battier in the playoffs because he was relentless on both ends of the floor. Battier was invisible on the offensive end as usual, and it was even more evident when our offense shut down in the playoffs. If you look at playoff +/- numbers in the playoffs on 82games.com you see that most of our more talented offensive players had numbers on the plus side. This is because JVG's regular season minded help defense (complete with JVG help defense players like Battier and Hayes) backfires in the playoffs when talent overpowers effort. Battier has one advantage - playoff seeding. However, if you can't deliver when the cameras flash in the playoffs it doesn't matter if you are the 1st seed (see Mavs). When I see the Warriors play in the playoffs I see a team built on gutsy decisions by management. They amassed a lot of raw talent, length, athleticism, and quickness. These things don't go away in the playoffs. In fact, they become magnified against sound, execution teams like Dallas and Utah. The keys to that team are Nellie and Davis being off-the-floor and on-the-floor generals respectively. They make that raw talent work as a team. When I see the Rockets play in the playoffs I see a team built on wimpy decisions by management. We amassed a lot of players with experience (with losing resumes), not much length, little athleticism, and the worst quickness in the league (see Yao). These things are bad news in the playoffs. In fact, more athletic teams (see '05 Mavs, '07 Jazz) make us look like crap. The keys to our team in the regular season were JVG team defense, Battier effort, Mutombo's fountain of youth, and 50 a night from 111. JVG makes this team look like a bunch of zombies wondering why they were the only team hit with the playoff plague. We have to get a PG like Steve Francis or Mo Williams for the MLE. Hopefully we can get Hayes back for the LLE. See if we can get rid of Juwan Howard for Mike James as was rumored near the trade deadline. We may have to throw in a 2nd round pick or Bob Sura's expiring in that one. Battier + filler for Camby + draft pick. Alston + Head for Luke Walton + Maurice Evans. Resign Mutombo or Big Jake. PG - Francis or Williams SG - TMac SF - Walton PF - Camby C - Yao Bench: Mike James Hayes Mutombo/Big Jake Maurice Evans VSpan Lucas Novak 1st Round Pick 2 Veterans The bench is still somewhat thin, but many play multiple positions and the starters are stellar.
Good thread guys -- I like the discussion here. And yea, I do agree -- if we can improve our team and make it more athletic, we pull the trigger. I can't believe that somebody like Battier should be untouchable. We are nowhere near championship level and I don't see any relative improvement in this team (relative of course, to the elite teams of the nba) unless we shake things up. If that requires trading away Battier, then so be it. Somebody mentioned Jose Calderon. I think that would be a great idea. Watching the Raptors this year, it seemed like they couldn't decide who to play more when both were playing well -- TJ Ford or Calderon. I see some underlying tension there so I'm guessing that Calderon goes. But it will be tough because everyone will be clamoring for Calderon.
I agree with the premise as well, Battier can't be a team's 3rd best player. If one liken's Battier to Bruce Bowen, in terms of what they bring to their respective clubs, one can see that Bowen is hardly the Spurs 3rd option. I like Battier. But if this team wants to make a change in it's style of play, and wants to get quality personnel then they are going to have to use Battier as their main chip. A couple of posters have brought up Rashard Lewis. Lewis is an interesting case because of the "situation" in Seattle. Sometimes "quality talent" can be had for less because of certain "situations." Perhaps that good player is injury prone, or is a malcontent or whatever. Sometimes teams can "steal" a good player. Basically like how Houston stole McGrady from Orlando. In Rashard Lewis' case in Seattle, as tigereye mentioned in a previous thread, the team could be doing a firesale/keep spending close to the vest because of the arena situation. Will Seattle be willing to offer up a HUGE contract extension to Rashard with those quesitons up in the air? OR will Seattle keep spending low until they are more settled. This is exactly the kind of situation the Rockets should be looking at. So, what i am asking is, could a deal be had where Houston sends the modest contract of Shane Battier+Head+Sura+2007 1st round pick for a S&T Rashard Lewis? Seattle would get a quality player in Battier as well as a nice player in Head and a 1st round pick. They flip a quality talent in Rashard for potentially 3 quality "cheaper" players to keep costs down. Sure Houston gets the better end of the TALENT deal, but this is a special circumstance. If the Rockets could get Rashard for that package (thinking Rashard as a "fast PF), they could then use their full MLE on either a quality swingman like Mikael Pietrus or adding a PG like Mo Williams or Chucky Atkins or still look to make a Juwan for Mike James trade. If this team wants to move to a "quicker" lineup, maybe a Rashard Lewis at the PF lineup is it (with Hayes off the bench.). And let me put it another way. What Lewis does right now, I think is the absolute "ceiling" for someone like Rudy Gay. And I dont even think Gay will reach that ceiling. Thoughts?
A Battier trade to Seattle would hopefully net Lewis and Collison... however...unless Lewis pushes for the Rockets like Tmac did...I don't see it happening... but how about Carter??? I've stated before in another thread that I don't know how well Carter would fit...but it's an interesting prospect at least... so heres the deal...New Jersey only has one "PF" and that's Mikki Moore, who is like a tall Chuck Hayes...limited offensively but hustles and rebounds...he is in his prime and is probably going to want a little more money (free agent)... New Jersey needs some offense and veteran leadership from the four to go with a hopefully healthy and developing Nenad... as they will be losing Carter anyways they could help facilitate a trade for him that brings back some pieces for them and allows them to stay competitive with an eye on the future...much like the Martin trade....this could be ideal for Carter who wants to play for a high caliber team (no high caliber team can afford him w/o trade)... Plus he and Tmac are real close...watch them interview each other during the last few Allstars...they talk about what could have been...they talk about hanging out over the summer... they talk about how Kobe would be a better teammate than either of them would be to each other (though I'm sure it was a joke)...but they talk about how fun it was to team up with each other a few times at the heigth of there career back when Tmac played in the east and they were teammates on the Allstar team. They seem to be really close...and neither seem to be selfish people...they are both good guys...who only complained about not having help...they never complained about getting to little shots...Carter averages like 4-5 assist a game and had a few 10+ assist games this season....Tmac average 6-7...they are play makers that will feed off each other...Carter is a better three point shooter...Tmac a better passer....with Yao in the middle as a staple on offense...this could be interesting...I am positive if Carter had his pick of joining a team...we would be at the top of the list because of the situation we offer and Tmac... So we package a resigned Wells (he seemed to still have pride in his interviews....he wants to show he can play ball somewhere) who can pick up some of Carter's scoring...plus Battier and Juwan to give them veteran leadership and stability...and Sura's contract to come off the books now...we get a resigned Carter and Moore...(I've always had the feeling Carter would end up playing for Houston)... Go for Nocioni hard with MLE...he is like a Battier that can play the 4.... all hustle and D with a solid jumper and 3 ball...high bball IQ...get Francis for the Vet min when he is bought out... Yao/Moore/Jake Nocioni/Hayes/Novak Carter/Snyder Tmac/Head Francis/Alston/Vspan and we still have the draft pick to pick up some depth...lots of offense with this team...sign up Adelman and like Taco Bell we're good to go... -V
I think that pretty much sums up my response to 99% of the trade ideas that float around this thread.
