Glenn Robinson can do everything Rice can do and is much younger. I like how you play the younger card here, yet you fail to mention that Francis is already better than Cassell and going into his 3rd season while Cassell will be starting season #9 with CWebb, Hardaway and the rest of his draft class, and that Mobley is 2 years younger (NBA experience wise) than Allen. Allen didn't start coming into his own until this season, his 5th. Mobley's only played 3 seasons. He and Francis will both improve. I am sorry, but Rockets dont have anyone who can compare to Tim Thomas The comparison is almost scary Tim Thomas 6-10 230 Eddie Griffin 6-9 220 (still growing/rumored to be taller that that) Tim Thomas - Named Big East Rookie of the Year in 1997 Eddie Griffin - Named Big East Rookie of the Year in 2001 Tim Thomas - 1 yr. college; drafted 7th overall by New Jersey; traded Eddie Griffin - 1 yr. college; drafted 7th overall by New Jersey; traded Tim Thomas - Villanova Freshman Year: 16.9 pts 6.0 rebs Eddie Griffin - Seton Hall Freshman Year: 17.8 pts 10.8 rebs 4.4 blks Eddie Griffin is just like a Tim Thomas, with a better shot, much better rebounding, and excellent shotblocking. Griffin is also rumored to be as tall as 6'11 and will be able to develop into a PF. Thomas hasn't put on any weight since he joined the league. April 16, 1997 - "The 6-10, 230-pound Thomas averaged 16.9 points and 6.0 rebounds for Villanova and was named Freshman of the Year by the U.S. Basketball Writers and Big East Rookie of the Year in 1996-97." NBA.com player profile 4 years later...6-10 230 --- Jahidi White will be our ERVIN Johnson
Look, calm down. I happen to like Nugz's presence on this board for the last few years. Hell, he brings a semblance of rational to all of the proposed trades that involves raping the Nuggets. I think the Milwaukee trio is still pretty much superior to the Rockets new found threesome. I don't care if you call Sam Cassell selfish, egotistical, or whatever, the guy is a gamer. One of the best, if not the best big game point guard in the league. Bar NONE! The guy delivers when it matters most. Stevie is definately unproven in that respect. A couple of games down the stretch where we needed him to step up, he came up empty. I guarantee you Sammy doesn't blow the game winning layup against Seattle. You gotta love Sam. He has the athleticism of Moochie Norris, but the heart and skills possessed by the legends. Stevie is going to be a great player. He's already a damn good player. But if he manages to ever have the big game ability of Sam Cassell, that ability to take your game to another level in the crunch, he can be an ALL-TIME GREAT. (I would also like the point out that I'm not arguing Sammy is the better overall player, just that Francis doesn't completely dominate in this comparison) Ray Allen is a better player than Cuttino Mobley. I don't even think it's even that close of a debate. I think he's the best pure shooter in the game. He's got good ballhandling skills. Gets to the rack as well as Cat, except he works off the ball much better than Cat. I think he's a better competitor than Cat. Ray, as nice of a guy that he is, steps up to challenges. Whether it was after Vince bloodied his nose, or Iverson laying down the gaunlet, Ray steps up to the challenge the right way(i.e. being aggressive within the context of the offense). Ray has also showed an ability to elevate his play in important games and situations. I'm sure a lot of people on this board saw some of his huge games, especially coming after playoff losses this past year. His fantastic drive and dunk over McGrady to put them up by 2 with seconds to go. Or his game tying three pointer at the buzzer to send the game to OT in 1999(though the Pacers eventually swept them that year). And as much as I love Cat and his game, his b****ing act late in the season started getting on my nerves. He needs to start harnessing his energy the right way. That Clipper fiasco was almost unforgivable. At this stage of their careers, Glenn Robinson is the better player. We all saw him struggle mightily this past playoff run. I don't think that's indicative of him being a big game choker. This is the same guy who almost had nightly buzzer beaters in carrying the Bucks to their first playoff birth in more than a decade in 1999. I'll tell you this, if you watched that game 6 game in 1997 against the Jazz, the Big 3 pulled a big time choke job in that game. And if people used that small sample for an evalution, they would be in the wrong. Whether it was Barkley struggling to score down the stretch, Olajuwon getting humiliated by Greg Ostertag with a series of blocks, or Clyde pulling the most unforgivable act in recent memory against Byron Russell for the last shot, it just goes to show good players can have bad games, bad series, and a bad playoff run. What I do know about Glenn Robinson, he has one of the purest middle distance games of any forward since the early 90's(Chris Mullin comes to mind). His mid range jumper, turnaround, and array of up and under of moves are a thing of beauty most nights. The guy is a bonafide scorer anyway you slice it. Although, he like the other 2 teammates are average defender, he is an above average rebounder. But I think Glen Rice in his prime is a better player than the Big Dog. His last few seasons has tainted his reputation as one of the premier scorers in the league. The guy used to abuse the Rockets the way Tracy McGrady and Paul Pierce, albiet in a different fashion, abused the Rockets this past year. I remember Mario Elie was being touted as a possible defense player of the year in the local media during the 1996-1997 season. For a 6'3" guy, he did a tremendous job guarding the 1, 2, and 3 positions. But the one guy who made him look like Scottie Brooks was Glen Rice. The guy abused Elie worsed than J. Kidd abused his wife. It was a helpless feeling watching us play the Hornets. Terrific post player for a 3, with damn good athleticism to boot. Deadly shooter who could create his own shot. If the Rockets get half of the player that Rice used to be, I think this trade is a wonderful thing. The Rockets haven't had a shooter of Rice's caliber since Kenny Smith in his early 90's heyday. What the Rockets definately needed was someone reliable to knock down a trey in pressure situations. Bullard was never a great crunch time shooter. In fact, Bullard was never a great shooter period. There is a reason why Bullard rarely set foot on the floor during the Rocks' first championship season, he couldn't hit a shot in important games, not even considering crucial situations. We depended on Bull for a quite a few last possession open looks this past season, i don't think he delivered once. I don't agree with a lot of Rudy and the gang moves. But I think this was a good move. Rice is pure and simple, a better player than Anderson. Add in the fact that Anderson is going to continue to log the majority of his minutes at the SF position, this trade is almost a no-brainer, because as a SF, Rice is a vastly better option than Anderson at that position. Anderson struggled mightily guarding the bigger players in the post. I thought he wouldn't have as many problems as most people suspected with guarding taller and bigger swing men. But now I'm convinced that Anderson is a good 2 defender. But he is an average 3 defender. I also feel that adding a premier shooter/scorer makes our team much better overall. I think Nikeman pointed out in another thread that the best ball that the Rockets played in the last 2 years was during the stretch where Walt Williams was playing like a mad man. We were beating top playoff teams down the stretch unlike this past season. The way the Wizard was stroking it made the penetration from our dynamic duo even deadlier. I feel that even at this stage of his career, Rice's everyday play is equivalent to the Wizard playing out of his mind during that last month of the 2000 season.
A couple of things I like to point out. One Ray Allen is almost full year younger than Mobley. I think age is a more important determinant rather than pro experience when it comes to determining how much better a player can become. Also consider that Ray Allen posted 19.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, and 4.3 apg in his 2ND SEASON. If he didn't come into his own until this past season, that means Mobley still hasn't come into his own after three seasons. How is EG a better shooter than Tim Thomas. Tim is a career 37% shooter from 3 point land. EG barely shot over 38% from the field in his last 20 college games. He only shot somewhere close to 31% from 3 point land the entire season. Why do so many people on the BBS think that it is almost a given that Eddie Griffin is going to keep growing. For every player like Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan that continue to grow noticeably at this age, there are 20 players that don't grow an inch. The fact that you mention Tim Thomas hasn't grown since he entered the league with EG's exact age and height dimensions, that might be a good indicator that EG won't be growing either. And Griff has officially stated that he's 6'10". And with a few miracles, here's hoping he hits 7 feet in a year. Also, the fact that the Rockets dominated the Bucks in one outing should not be an objective indicator of the Rockets overall success in the grand scheme of things. The Bucks are a better team. They have more success when pitted against all 28 teams when compared to the Rockets. I'm sure most posters aren't going to be pointing out that the Clippers were pretty potent against the Rockets last season, which I guess means they are a better team. That's not necessarily the case. When comparing how good a team really is, the important criteria is how they match up and perform against everyone in the league, not just one particular team.
The same Ervin Johnson who lost his job in Seattle because of McIlvaine? Wow, we're really envious of you now... The Bucks don't have much on the Rockets, other than the fact that they play in a CBA-caliber conference... Or maybe the fact that George Karl's lip is crooked... Compare the Big 3 not by position but overall skill and simlarity... Francis=Allen Both are versatile guards who can rebound, pass, run the floor, shoot, whatever... Cassell=Mobley Both take charge guys who want the ball in the clutch... Both can be construed as being selfish... Both love to talk trash... They are very similar players other than the fact that one is a PG the other a SG... Rice=Robinson As bad defense as Rice plays, Robinson is even worse... Rice is slightly a better shooter, while Robinson at this point in their careers is a better athlete... So if you look at the Big 3 as a whole they are basically even...
Comparing Thomas to Griffin is an insult to Griffin... Thomas makes Mo Taylor look like a bouncer at a strip club... Thomas is one of the softest 6 ft 10 players I've ever seen... Proof of that is the fact that Karl plans on him playing some time at SHOOTING GUARD... Thomas has never been a good rebounder or shot blocker... Griffin's rebounding and shot blocking skills are 10X's better than Thomas'... Anytime a 6 ft 10 guy is supposed to play SG, is a sign that he can't do s#it in the paint... In the East, he should be able to hold his own... Damn, I'd hate to see him in the West... Would he then slide to PG? I have questions about Griffin's man-to-man defense in the NBA, strictly because his body hasn't reached full maturation... But I know without a doubt that at the very least he can be a great help defender, ala Horry... Thomas might as well have his image posted on milk cartons when he plays "defense"... The guy isn't quick enough for the perimeter, nor is he anywhere tough enough to play anywhere near the paint... The fact that he is a 6 ft 10 and his only good skill is shooting 3's makes him a scrub... He's pretty much a more athletic Matt Bullard... We're not talking about Nowitzki, because he at least has mid-range AND long-range shots to go with his PG-like ball handling skills... You can have your Ervin Johsons and Tim Thomases...
Obviously you don't remember, because it was game 4. EJ didn't show up at all for game 5 or 6. (right here should be some kind of smiley face that denotes some form of sarcasm in a fun loving way. But since I have never used a smiley face for however long I've been on this board, I will not use one now.) And on a side note, I've been on this board since the inception of the post count, and I feel I spend a good amount of time posting on this board. I've got one question.... HOW THE HELL DO SOME OF YOU PEOPLE RACK SO MANY DAMN POSTS IN SUCH A SHORT TIME HORIZON? That's been bothering me for some time now. ( here is where another one of those smiley thingy's are suppose to be)
Tim Thomas is a perimeter player. The fact that he is 6'10" is quite an advantage for a perimeter player. Are we going to start using the same logic that since Chuck Barkley was 6'4" and a half, that he should have had more lateral quickness and been a better ballhandler/perimeter shooter. Thomas was never an interior player. He didn't play power forward in college. He doesn't play power forward much in the pros. He is primarily a swing player. I think he's a pretty damn good one too. He's a much better defender than you are giving him credit for. Superior man to man perimeter defender when comparing him to Griffin. And yes, he's a better ball handler than Nowitski. Thomas has terrific tools. NO doubt about it. If he ever puts it all together, he will be an All-Star. And let's not throw around the scrub word so irresponsibly. Words like that are reserved for Sam Mack.
If that was true, then I guess Thomas should have been a #1 pick... If he's as damn good as you say he is, he would be starting right now... He's not anywhere close to being better than Big Dog, who is another guy I don't see much in other than his ability to score... Surely if Thomas had the skills at 6 ft 10 that you speak of, Thomas would have been drafted ahead of the likes of Chauncey Billups, Antonio Daniels, Tony Battie, and Ron Mercer... Comparing Thomas to Barkley is again, insulting to Barkley because he was great at everything for a PF who was 6 ft 4... His ballhandling skills were damn good for a PF, seeing how he had the rare ability to LEAD A FAST BREAK after grabbing a rebound... Barkley at 6 ft 4, was able to be 10X's the inside force Thomas could ever pray to be... Thomas would be lucky to average half the boards per game that Barkley could... Barkley had a solid jumper from 17 ft and in... Barkley had post moves... Most of all, Barkley's heart was as big as any NBA player's I've ever seen... The only comparison b/t Barkley and Thomas that I can see is that they both aren't typical size for their position... The big difference b/t the 2 is the fact that Barkley was a dominant PF, while Thomas isn't a starting SG/SF (or whatever position he does play)... Fact is, no one questioned Barkley's ability to play PF... While Thomas doesn't really have a defined position...
Sadly, Tim Thomas is making twice as much money as Barkley ever did... Herb Kohl went off the deep end for offering Thomas the max...
Wow, you know what? You're totally right. Francis is a better overall player, yet he never shows any heart come playoff time. He chokes so much, and that's what leads to playoff exits. Damn...wow. Cassell's heart is not matched. Steve needs to look at Sam I Am and learn a lesson - you gotta have heart come playoff time. But he's never played in 1 playoff game!
honestly theres no way francis' adv. over cassell can outweight the adv. allen has over mobley and robinson over rice.
well, well, well. instead of actually reading what i wrote, you read what you think i wrote. pathetic. grow up jacka$$. what i said was right. i didnt rip on your team. thank you da man for understanding that. gr8-1 ; again, their big 3 are better. and no, we wont be in the lotto for 10 years. youd like that wouldnt you. sorry to dissappoint. and honestly how does your comment #2 make ANY SENSE. i said the bucks play in the east, and you reply by saying the rockets play in the west! you AGREED with me and called it a problem. you take moron to a new level.
Match up at positions don't really matter when comparing teams head to head. To say "Well Cassell is better then Francis, while Allen is better then Mobley. . ." is silly. How can people compare and say "Milwaukee's Big 3 is better then Houston's Big 3", when the Rockets <b>BIG TWO</b> destroyed Milwaukee's Big 3? You can't deny that. So comparing them doesn't matter if Milwaukee can't beat Houston. Besides, it doesn't matter if Milwaukee plays in the East because they face the same situation Houston does, then entire conference has improved. Now Milwaukee has to deal with Philly, Charlotte, Toronto, New York, Orlando, Indiana, New Jersey and Atlanta, so to say "Well they're in the East" is a copout, because they are going to have just as much trouble as the Rockets. And when it is all said and done, I feel the Rockets will have improved, and will be better then Phoenix, Minnesota, and will catch up with Sacramento and get a little closer to Dallas and San Antonio, so I see the Rockets in the playoffs next year.
I see the Bucks looking worse next year and the Rockets looking better. Bucks will have to fight to defend their division crown and to make the 50 win plateau again with the Sixers, and improved Raptors team, and a healthy Magic and Heat team. I see them finishing around 47-35 with a 4 seed or so. Rockets will definitely improve. They lose Hakeem, but he only showed up half the time anyways. They gain a possible hall of famer rookie and a savvy, experienced vet WITH championship experience and consistent play (what hurt the rockets a lot last year in my opinion was that they did not know what to expect on a day by day basis from a player like Walt; one day he was 7-7 from three, the next two he would go 0-7, Rice isnt the best shooter in the league anymore, but he is consistent). I see the Rockets finishing 51-31 and with a 5th or 6th seed (depending on Utah's deterioration). This is all just speculation, though. All we know for fact is that the Rockets absolutely destroyed the Bucks last year and that the style of play both teams are utilizing seem to be at least somewhat successful (werent the Bucks 8-0 vs the top 4 teams in the West last year?). It is a valid attempt to go around Shaq, and not through him, as Philly did by acquiring Deke last year. IMO, Rudy knows exactly what he is doing. But, as Karl's Bucks proved last year, it doesnt guarantee success. So, we have to be better at it then the Bucks were. To stay on topic then , I think the Rockets three and, the ROckets team as a whole is better than the Bucks
I was a drunk last night. But, I just can't stand your kurt comments about the Rockets on this board. Personally, I think you're jealous that the Rockets surpassed the Nugz in rebuilding. How bad has your team been over the years ? Weren't you the one who said last year that the Nugz were ahead of the Rockets in the rebuilding stage ? Sometimes your posts are very credible and legitimate. I just wish you were a bit more diplomatic with your posts. You sound like a troll sometimes.
too bad the bucks dont have much outside of their "big 3". Rocks have Mo, Griff, Langhi, Tmo, and hopefully Moochie. Bucks have Tim Thomas. IM so scared!!!
Come on guys, Stop comparing the Rockets to the Bucks and Nuggets. First off, we're completely out of the Nuggets league. They can't match us in any aspect of the game. Any. Even McDyess isn't as great as we thought him to be. The Bucks are much better than the Nugz but still don't compare to us. Cassell, as much as we all love him,isn't half the man Steve is. OK Ray Allen is probably a better player than Cuttino, but no way is Big Dog superior to Glen Rice, I don't care what anyone says. Big Dog sucks. One good season doesn't mean anything. The Bucks will not repreat their success of last year, there are too many good teams now, including these Rockets, who will leave Denver in the dust out west and probably sweep the Milwaukee series. I'm not saying the Rockets are championship material already, but stop comparing us to the lowly Nuggets. They Suck. We Don't.
Exactly. Casell is a proven playoff commodity. Franics has yet to play in the first round of playoffs. Franics could be really good or could fade in playoffs. No way for you or me to tell right now, and until then I will take a proven commodity over him at the same position. I have followed Cassell when he made big shots with the Rockets, agaisnt the knicks, Spurs, Phoenix, Magic, Jass, all in the playoffs. Another thing about Casell, he wasnt afraid to take big shots even as a rookie and when Hakeem was in his prime. Francis doesnt have the killer instinct if he has to defer to Mobley in the crunch time. I am sorry but crunch-time players demand crunch-time shots. And until Franics gets into playoffs we have no way of telling how successful he can be.
