When that ex keeps trying to come back to you Stop it CP3, you are embarrassing yourself. We've moved on.
Its hopeful, but not likely. Maybe if John wall has an unlikely ressurgance next year? I was impressed that he looked good physically when he was on the court after 2 years of no play, but then again he still sat out a bunch. Compare that to Chris Paul that took a team projected to be in the lottery to the playoffs with the thunder and now helped as the xfactor to push teh suns into the 2nd seed. Booker is the best player, but paul is the x-factor, this year doesnt go down the way it did without him. So yea now his reputation as a leader, culture changer a,dn winner is primed so I can see teams giving him a big check for the next year or two. It makes sense. Wall on the other hand is known as inefficient, not a winner, and then also injury prone. That player option to him is a no brainer and th eres no market where he makes anything close.
Harden didn’t like CP3 and wanted Russ. Morey negotiated and signed off on this awful trade. But somehow all the blame is on Tilman.
Espn Macmahon on Zach Lowe podcast: "That trade was made because Tilman Fertitta wanted it made -- he thought Chris Paul's contract was the worst that he'd ever seen in business or sports -- and because James Harden wanted it made. I still believe, and I wrote this last summer before things went down. I still believe that if necessary they could have managed that situation; I know a lot of people throughout the organization believe that. Daryl Morey was the biggest Chris Paul backer in the organization. Nobody -- Daryl or anybody else -- has ever told me that he made that trade with objections, that he made that trade despite not fully believing in it. But I just can't help but think that it was a deal where basically, his two bosses -- Fertitta and Harden -- said 'hey, we want this deal made, get it done.' And he did what he had to do to get it done." Let alone Morey also went on record saying he had harden in line to move forward and build on cp3 and he was fine with that. Furthermore harden also said his main trust was with Daryl, mda, and tad brown. ok ok...fake news right? Fine here is Tilman own quote that he volunteered, as usual, to goto the press and talk about " My basketball ops [operations] got maybe a little weak at the end, and I just said, ‘We’re doing this. We are going to make the change. We’re going to go after it and roll the dice. We’re going to find that 5 percent.’ The one thing I believe you do in business, and you do in basketball, is you never sit still. You always keep it exciting." But yea, zach lowe espn reports? fake news, nah Tilman's own words and admission? Still, hes just a good guy trying to take the blame? I've never seen owner stans like this. Its comical Here is further education for you: "the Rockets barely went over the luxury tax (just $3.65 million over) in their one season (2015-16) as a taxpayer. The Warriors spent $49.63 million in penalties over the last five seasons, while even the small-market Thunder spent $33.73 million. There was no excuse for Houston to not open up the checkbook. This is a franchise located in the fourth-biggest metro area in the U.S. that has had a superstar in the prime of his career. Alexander sat on his hands while Houston’s rivals went all in, counting on Morey’s ability to use advanced statistics to turn water into wine.... This refusal to spend money became farcical once Alexander sold the team to Tilman Fertitta in 2017. Fertitta spent so much money ($2.2 billion) to purchase the Rockets that he may not have had the liquidity to go into the red to build a title contender. Houston was a laughingstock around the league for the amount of juggling it had to do to stay under the tax. The best example came at the trade deadline last season, when Morey used a future first-round pick to shed the salaries of Brandon Knight and Marquese Chriss. There was no basketball reason for the move. It was just done to cut costs. It’s not that Knight and Chriss would have helped the Rockets. But there were certainly a lot of better things that Morey could have used that pick for. Houston also spent that season in a bizarre staring contest with Danuel House Jr. House is the kind of diamond in the rough that Morey routinely uncovered in Houston, an undrafted free agent on a two-way contract who would become a starting-caliber wing. The problem was that players on those deals can spend only 45 days with the NBA team during the season before their contracts have to be converted. Money in Houston was so tight that Morey had to send House back to the G League when he wouldn’t sign a below-market long-term deal. He replaced House with two players he signed off the street (Gerald Green and Kenneth Faried) before bringing him back right before the playoffs. It’s not like House was asking for the world. He signed a three-year, $11 million contract in the offseason. But even that was more than Morey could offer at the time. Houston’s limited financial flexibility became an even bigger issue last season after the trade for Westbrook. With the team’s two best players costing a combined $76.7 million, it became almost impossible for Morey to fill out the roster while staying under the luxury tax. Morey and head coach Mike D’Antoni had to conjure up production from players other teams didn’t want. Jeff Green went from being cut by the Jazz to being a crucial piece of the Rockets’ small-ball attack in the playoffs. It was the same story with Austin Rivers, who had been on three teams in five seasons before landing in Houston, and Ben McLemore, who had one foot out of the NBA before the Rockets turned him into a 3-point sniper. All were more valuable in Houston than anywhere else in the league because Morey identified what they could do well and put them in roles that didn’t ask them to do much else." Also, cp3 himself doesnt seem to blame harden: Former Houston Rockets guard Chris Paul was on the Knuckleheads podcast with Darius Miles and Quentin Richardson and explained the impact of the Rockets losing Ariza. “People don’t realize, that’s the biggest thing that we missed. That was tough when we lost [Ariza] because he sorta was like the glue. He was that glue for our team.” I'm convinced fertitta has his family or his managers that he pays half for on here now. Can't be that dense unless they are defending bc they have to or bc its family
Pretty easy to see we downgraded from CP3->Westbrook straight up, and it's catastrophic with the lost picks. It's an even bigger drop-off from Westbrook->Wall. All 3 make the same money, but we'll be paying for Wall for TWO more years, while CP3's contract will now be off of the books. CP3 clearly earned his money. CP3 2018-19 (HOU): Age 33. 58/82 games. #12 PG in win shares. #11 PG in RPM. 2019-20 (OKC): Age 34. 70/72 games. #1 PG in win shares (12.00). #1 PG in RPM (5.51). 2020-21 (PHX): Age 35. 70/72 games. #3 PG in win shares (10.78). #8 PG in RPM (3.54). 2021-22 (???): Age 36. Will opt out of 4th year player option Westbrook 2019-20 (HOU): Age 31. 57/72 games. #4 PG in win shares (9.03). #4 PG in RPM (3.64) 2020-21 (WAS): Age 32. 65/72 games. #10 PG in win shares (8.98). #15 PG in RPM (2.03). Wall 2020-21 (HOU): Age 30. 40/72 games. #30 PG in win shares (2.46). #31 in RPM (0.08). And with Wall, two more years of suckage…at over $40M/year...the worst contract in the NBA
It is funny that you quote MacMahon because Clutchfans told me he is a second rated journalist who hates the Rockets. But when he bashes Tilman he suddenly become credible. Morey is very good at manipulating the media so I wouldn’t be surprised if Morey leaked this info to MacMahon to downplay Tilman’s name. But one thing is certain for sure: Harden wanted Russ. He had recruited Russ for days prior to the trade, he was not going to let the trade fall through. If the Rockets don’t trade for Russ, he was going to act up. 8:10 “You guys said it came together quickly, it didn’t happen quick enough for James.”
Great, well let's be realistic about the status of the Rockets now rather than complain about what ifs. They aren't currently contenders, but considering Wall's age, while he won't be worth the money, I'd be willing to bet he won't play any worse than last season. And honestly his play (individually) for a guy coming back from a catastrophic injury having not played in two years...it's pretty impressive. Better than Paul or Westbrook? Obviously not, but considering the current situation where the team is, Wall's play and value may improve over the next year. If he shows that he can take a step up in production next season, a team may bite at the deadline.
Agreed, lets rule out Mcmahon. What about the rest of the actual reciepts below? Thats it, thats your whole story? that quote. Not that morey had said harden was fine moving forward if we kept getting better even though he preferred his friend? Hold up here, was harden also the one saying not to use our bird rights after we almost went to the finals in 2018? Were we pandering to harden when we let go of his best friend on the team trevor ariza, teh guy chris paul said was our missing x factor? -couldn't see the first dominos before chris paul left? Teh guy who held the team together for harden we cheaped out on even though he was a one year deal, tradeable(he was tradeable) and by all account the leading vet, the heart on the switch heavy defense Did morey manipulate this fact to:"This refusal to spend money became farcical once Alexander sold the team to Tilman Fertitta in 2017. Fertitta spent so much money ($2.2 billion) to purchase the Rockets that he may not have had the liquidity to go into the red to build a title contender. Houston was a laughingstock around the league for the amount of juggling it had to do to stay under the tax. The best example came at the trade deadline last season, when Morey used a future first-round pick to shed the salaries of Brandon Knight and Marquese Chriss. There was no basketball reason for the move. It was just done to cut costs. It’s not that Knight and Chriss would have helped the Rockets. But there were certainly a lot of better things that Morey could have used that pick for." -Can you dispute that move when it doesnt help anyone but the owner, not the fans, not the team, we just gave up assets while in our championship window. Compare that to warriors who continue to spend tax at a laughable amount while investing in their facilities bc they are thinking long ball and thats how warriors went from laughing stock to now a destination with a world wide brand, and their owner is worth less than half of tillman. Is this the winning culture tilman spoke about? Let alone i just gave you an exact tilman quote he volunteered to brag about...but you don't care about his actual words right, you're delusions are more important? Hes on record lying...a lot, you acn look it up, i can look it up for you. Tilman will sell his oil to anyone who is stupid enough to still buy it, no offense. Were we pandering ot harden when we replaced ariza with James Ennis on the minimum contract, then in Febuary of that season while he was in MDA's short rotation we ttraded him for a top 55 2nd round pick, no players in return? what about the month before that, January when we cut Daniel House, also in the rotation for 2 months until it was tax friendly. that was while harden was playing like 38 minutes aggame crazy useage, but coming back to empty lockers in our supposed title window where we wetn 'all in? Were we also appealing to harden when we cut his personal trainer from our staff? What about Jeff Bzdelik, teh associate head coach who ran our best rated defense who also "left to be with his family" then went to pelicans? What about when we ignored our MLE both years? What about when we ignored our TPE thatt morey accumulated for years? So basiclaly, 90 percent of our moves were cost cutting. And lets remeber, those moves don't help the GM with future flexiblity, in fact he had to ignore or trade all the assets he he himself accumulated once tilman took over, gymnastic to get under the tax. Guess who sees that benefits of the tax savings? No doesn't help our future flexiblity, doesnt help the gm, coach, doesn't help harden...that money goes to one mans pockets. I looked up the numbers above, your facts don't check out my man.
How can you be sure it was Tilman’s decision to not retain Ariza when Morey in the past had declined to pay Chandler Parsons because of flexibility? Ariza was seeking for a long term contract. If you thought Ariza was going to salvage our season, you are delusional. In hindsight, Ariza got flipped for Oubre who I believe could be a game changer, but 99% Morey would have stayed pat and would not have looked to trade Ariza. And you can’t deny that his acquisition in that summer was trash. He seriously thought James Ennis and MCW was going to work. I’ve been saying day 1 we need shooters and he went out and sign MCW. That just tells me he doesn’t have feel for the game. And he bragged about Ennis for the entire summer. I know he probably only had the minimum to work with but I am pretty sure there are better options. I thought it was a poor decision to let go of Melo. The talent was there and they had just played like 10 games. It was a bad decision to not give it more time. MDA probably still held a grudge against Melo and I thought I thought he did not treat Melo fairly. While some of criticism against Tilman is true, I don’t think it is fair to put all the blame on him. Morey, MDA and Harden all have take some responsibility.
The parsons situation was simple, morey spoke abotu this at sloan conference. They had indication that bosh watned to come, so therefore they felt they had the pieces to go for the ring and they would go above the cap with bird rights for parsons if so, bosh backed out and they went anotehr way. That was under Les, who by accounts was cheap but also it was a different nba economics with much less money involved. The new tv deal may very well pay the entire salary initself before gates, merchandise, etc. So its only getting more expensive. Tillman unforutnatley not only bought in the peak, half his networth is with the rockets, but more consequential he was the most overleveraged owners in the nba, he is the only nba owner who is financed in this manner : " A contract was soon signed, but Fertitta still needed to raise $2.2 billion—no easy feat, even for one of the world’s thousand richest people. Alexander agreed to finance $275 million of the deal. Fertitta then borrowed $250 million against the value of the Rockets, the maximum allowed by the NBA, and kicked in $300 million of his own money, but that still left him $1.375 billion short. Rather than selling equity in the company, which would have meant giving up full ownership, Fertitta decided to make up that difference by issuing corporate bonds and bank debt." So back to the ariza situation. You mentioned he was seekign a long term contract? He was absolutely open to returning and preferred and he was and did sign a one year contract. So there was no long term ramifications, we have him for one year to run it back since we were that close. He did sign a one year, that contract is also an expiring so very tradeable asset(he was traded that febuary for kelly oubre). So basically we were at the cap already, so we didn't have future flexibity this si the only way using our bird rights we could sign someone outside fhte MLE. We also ignored the MLE. So we just lost an asset, lost our chance at repacing the asset, lost our veteran who had the respect and ear of chris paul and harden, our top switch defender as well, an actual champion veteran, and the guy who chrsi paul himself said was th missing factor, the glue on what went wrong for our team in 18 to the 19 year. We did this with shumpert too. Remember we traded a first round pick to away in getting shumpert as a salary dump. Those picks, as we know now, are pretty valuable to either draft, to trade in the market, etc. We also once again ignored shumperts bird rights for that same situation, to get trade assets and we didn't. So we replace ariza with minimums, then when that minimum is on the court we trade him for nothing, a top 55 protected 2nd rounder. We also cut his dleague replacement mid way through the season for 2 months for small money reasons. Do you really think harden and paul, looking at these franchises winnign wrongs WHILE over paying bc thats just nba ecnonomics, theres a reason this isn't a restaurant and this is a billionaires game. Its a showase, legacy peace. You cut margins and cheapen depth here, you hurt your chances. Toronto over paid for an aging mark gasol to the tune of 50 million. He wasn't the different maker, but depth, cohesion, options matter in playoffs when the margins can be just a few shots. You can never guarantee a right, anyone who tells you that is selling you snake oil, but you give yourself a chance and Leonard's 3 bounces the right way and history was further made against an 'unbeatable' warriors team. Likewise he looks to cleveland and sees them overpay JR smith, KLove, Tristan just to retain talent when they didnt' have leverage. Its a steep price, but like i said this is a billionaires club, they will make their money. But Cleveland took a shot, also beating an 'unbeatable' warriors team and history was made, they got theri chip. Thats just the par of the league, and its only getting pricier. I'll quote Rich paul when talking about why he had to talk to anthony davis about leaving pelicans: I educated [Davis] on why I thought the team wouldn't be . . . ' He paused. 'All athletes are competitive and confident, until reality sets in. And I educated him on things.'" Paul laid out what superstars need to see from teams to give a long-term commitment. "You either need your team in place, or you need flexibility, assets, money, and the ability to make decisions. And, more important, the willingness to pay the [luxury] tax ... This ain't 'Moneyball. And as for Melo, are you aware while he only paid 10 games or so, we kept his MINIMUM nba contract on the team until febuary. Well he was the reason we actually lost our starting sf House that year for 2 months, because we didn't want to eat the minimum. so we waited to trade him for another protected 2nd. Thats 2 players,o ne player playing traded for 2nd rounders that won't convert. Thatst one player cut for 2 months mid season to make it tax friendly. CAn you show me anyteam, any serious contending team that is run like this while they are in their chcampionship window with nba stars? And once again, you are telling me I'm delusional about the difference of trevor ariza. I'm not sure if you consider cohesion, culture, both on the court and off it and why vets matter. but Are you calling the basketball genius Cp3 delusional? This is once again, like the tilman quote of him bragging basketball ops was weak(theres your answer) and he was the one said do it anyway, thsi is cp3's from his own words view of it: Former Houston Rockets guard Chris Paul was on the Knuckleheads podcast with Darius Miles and Quentin Richardson and explained the impact of the Rockets losing Ariza. “People don’t realize, that’s the biggest thing that we missed. That was tough when we lost [Ariza] because he sorta was like the glue. He was that glue for our team.” Of course harden, morey, mda all made their mistakes. We all saw mda's lack of adjustments, we've seen morey do assets and make mistakees, and we've seen harden hae low energy and make mistakes. But the trajectory of the franchise changed with tillman, when you can check the reciepts, 90 percent of our moves were to cust cost. The one taht wasnt like the westbrook trade brought in someone who has more jersey sales and merchandise sles than paul by far, had higher marketability views and in nba economcis the stars generate the brunt of the revenue, significantly as itst entirely marketed and sold on them.
@ashleyem , tried to include quotes and all the details. Long winded so i understand if not digestable, but wanted to be thorough bc you have some alternative facts there bud. most can skip this stuff since its too long and i think its been discussed here before. but its not about 'anti-tilman' or some petty excuse that its bc hes maga, or conservative ,or white ro god knows who the hell cares abotu what. these are all related to the rockets decisions since his ownership, thats all part 2: Tilman's not only been akin to a Dollar Value dolan, he openly lies about it, points fingers to anyone who still listens which makes it that much more offensive. Some people think this is "anti-Tilman' but when he bougth the team, I was excited. I was happy it moved to a local, a season ticket holder, and by all means with the assets we accumulated to even get better after being one game from the finals I thought it was brilliant and that he woudl come in, finish this off, he 'd be a local legend and houston can have our chip. Clutch city returns. But no, from his first offseason we saw the abvoe, we saw more all of a sudden ignore the very assets he accumulated for this window of opportunity and even trade them for nothign but money savings, with no futrue flexibilty mind you because we were over the cap already, it was just relative to the luxury tax. But the hopefuls were saying nah, ariza is replaceable(true, but what did we replace him with when we could've used the actual assets, mle to try better) or mainly we're just doing this strattegy to avoid the repeaters tax!)) So I don't know about you, but I goto games. I buy merchandise, I go out to the bars nd rock rockets gear and have long before Tilman. The dude doesnt help hismelf when he lies to our faces so much while also raising prices on us when i goto games. Its an odd thing to defend him when he will price you out of the building the chance he gets. just business. we waited, we saw more of the same. Tilman woudl give some obscure goal post liek guaranteeingg the finals or if a superstar comes he'll pay, like everyone else would as explained above, but mainly he lied and pointign fingers. From the video of him talking about he pushd through the westbrook traded despite basketball ops being weak while also saying all he doese is listen to his basketball ops and is the sign off guy. to talking about how much he knows his numbers in all his businesses to saying he has no idea how we gave up a first round pick in a trade accidentally to get under teh tax...whoops(Last year (getting under the luxury tax) was a fluke,” Fertitta said. “We were going to be in the (tax). It was an accident. I’m still trying to figure out how we got under. I was positive we were going to be in it by $11 million. But if I’m in the luxury tax, I expect us to win.) He does that in many cases, the reciepts re there to see it. Thats why I'm surprised you still are doing gymnstais to say "maybe" tilman wasn't apart of it, or I don't have 99.9 proof that tilman was apart of this except his own damn quotes and the others. When you see a franchise president who had money and power on the table and leave it to go elsewhere, the same year a GM leaves 3 yyers at high level pay guaranteed. The associate GMs, the head coach, the stars, the associate head coach...can you find me another franchise that has had a fast burn down even from the business side to the point that now we havea rookie gm(who i like), a rookie coach(who i like) but not one experienced or clout enough guy who can tell tilman to heade his own advice and just shut up and listen. the same year a star who you leaked to the press was terrible but then you also offered 100 million to stay for some reason also leaves it on the table. Mind you harden has a foundation here, bought and own homes,moved his family, has business investments, including a rockets themed restaurant opening this year-not exactly a guy sounding like hes scheming to leave. A guy who is not media savy, his moms his agent. So he isn't perfect made mistakes but the media barrage he took was just unfair. Teh guy leads the league in poitns, then assists. thet nba players shoudl hate the way he plays, but voted him players mvp twice. To do that in an age of load management ,he plays high games, minutes, useage...plays through his owners cuting 2 rotation players for money...that over several seasons, that takes mental grit, perseverence, and a unique drive to be great daily. That doesn't happen on accident, harden is not an athletic freak, he is a skill player. And then the coach, who also left to be an assistant rathrer than even negutiate with tilman again, just like Jeff bzdelik.Well I'll quote you another article "I think his agent did me a favor, OK," Fertitta said at the media availability, explaining that he now had an easy out if the Rockets had a disappointing year and decided to move on from D'Antoni. That's typically not the kind of comment made out loud, much less to the media, by an owner who is attempting to defuse drama. Of course, it's also an unusual approach to point out a coach's age and publicly wonder whether he wanted to continue working beyond next season, as Fertitta did when asked by the Houston Chronicle weeks earlier about a potential extension. That prompted the 68-year-old D'Antoni to make it clear that he planned to coach "at a high level for at least another three years." Nor is it normal NBA business practice to spill the specifics of an offer that wasn't accepted. Fertitta volunteered that the "great extension offer" he made D'Antoni included a $5 million base salary -- below market value for a coach of his stature -- and $1 million in incentives for each playoff round won. Fertitta failed to mention the buyout language that guaranteed D'Antoni only half of his base salary if the Rockets fired him before the extension began. That was the primary sticking point for D'Antoni, who hoped for a commitment of two more seasons beyond this contract and never seriously considered a half-hearted offer of one more year." Almost led MDa's wife to sue the owner too for his public lies, find me any owner that runs this stuff like this. volunteers to goto the press, lies, wants to be the face of the franchise-plasters his face all over prominently, you seeing any other owners do this? And if hes going to be outlandish, fine, but back it up with a chip and spending. Can't be a Dollar Value Dolan I hope he learns. The owner is the last, thing any fan wants to discuss or even notice. We're at the bottom of the league and all the signs point to this gu y as i showed you with reciepts, i wish he did better. I hope he does better bc our team and our city have a history thats bigger than him.
Chris Paul in Houston in his last year was really bad he blamed others in the playoffs against the Warriors, when he himself was out of shape, injured, slow. Couldn't get past his defender. Chris really looked old. No doubt the Rockets have the worst training staff. I think Chris Paul getting traded was the best thing for him. It honestly looked like Chris was lazy and not eating right. Really overweight, couldn't run off his extra weight because of no cartilage in both of his knees, bone on bone. He really did get in better shape, slimmed down, ate healthier, got treatment on his hamstring, knees. Looks way better. In Houston, I honestly do not understand why Keith Jones is still here. This past season we set a record for injuries and 30 players played on this roster. I mean is there anyone else can the Rockets hire as a Trainer.
Because from Tillman's own mouth his operations people were hesitant and he pushed it forward. Cool revision of history though.
I don't either but according to Vegas they were still favored over the Suns to make it to the Finals. They definitely pinned their hopes on Lebron taking over and mopping the floor with the Suns like flies. Obviously the injury to Anthony Davis' vagina didn't help. Either way I'm just glad Lakers fans will go away again. Lebron fans too.
Pretty hard to refute. Or claim we lost CP3 because Harden ran him out of town. And yet there are still people on this board so blind they still believe that garbage. Sigh.
