I looked into it. Shaq was the leading scorer on the Lakers the last three years and shot well over 50%. If the Lakers win it this year, Shaq will be the leading scorer in the playoffs in my opinion. Isiah had a bad shooting percentage but the rest of the starting five on the pistions shot near 48% which made up for it. Bird shot 50% for his career and the years they won it all he shot over 48% which is pretty close to 50%. Jordan was career 50% shooter with the 46.5% in his last championship year which was a career worse. I couldn't find playoff statistics for Jordan during those years but I bet he was over 50% in the playoffs. The other guys were before my time. I'm not saying you have to have a 50% shooter to win a championship, I'm just saying that it is alot easier to win one when your leading scorer is an effecient scorer.
aha...let's look at it another way, though. Let's drop the stats. The real point is closer to what TheFreak always says....you can't win the title unless your team has the best player in the league. Magic Moses/Erving Bird Hakeem Jordan Shaq Duncan They account for all but the Isiah wins in the last 23 years. And Isiah had the #1 pick of his draft year with him, and two other HOFers (if you rightfully count Rodman as one), not to mention Laimbeer an "NBA Top 90 Player." So, looking at that as the definitive criteria, it means that Yao Ming will have to become the best player in the league...no pointing fingers at Francis excuses for Yao Ming need to apply. Another way to look at it is that each winner since 1979-1980 had at least 1 #1 pick or had the best player who ever lived. (Moses and Dr J were #1 prospects as far as the NBA was concerned, but they went to the ABA). check it: Magic and Jabbar were #1s Bird was taken #6 the year before he declared with Magic by a Red Auerbach maneuver that changed drafting rules. He also won one with Walton as a #1. Moses/Dr J undeniable top prospects that passed on the NBA Aguirre/Thomas were #1 and #2 in the same draft class Hakeem was a #1 Shaq Duncan/Robinson So, using the criteria that it takes the best player who ever lived or a #1 pick to win it, then again, it points to Yao Ming winning this by his own dominance. <b>History shows it is all about Yao Ming becoming the best player in the league..without it, we don't win</b> Show me a #1 pick who failed to win, and I will show you a #1 pick who got outplayed by a better #1 pick. This will not be a case of Francis holding back Yao Ming....that will just be an excuse.
Actually, if you look at history, it's management's ability to bring together the right trades that have made championships. West and Auerbach were always 1 step ahead of everyone else. How else do you have Magic and Kareem then add in a James Worthy and Byron Scott. How do you have a Larry Bird, McHale, and Parrish and add in Dennis Johnson or Bill Walton. Those were the key compenents that made the difference. It took years before Jordan or Shaq won a championship and it wasn't because anyone was outplaying them. Jordan would still be without a ring if it wasn't for Pippen and Horace Grant. Where would Shaq be without Kobe Bryant. Tim Duncan is probably the best overall player in the league right now but he won't win again unless San Antonio adds more pieces. The Rockets would never have won that second championship without adding Cyde Drexler. It's going to take a similiar move by management to bring this team to a championship level. Steve Francis and Yao Ming have at least 5-8 years of all-star caliber basketball years ahead of them. if the Rockets luck out or make the right moves during this stretch, they have a shot of winning it all.
Great post Riet! Hope management can make some nice moves so we dont have to wait 5 years like the Bulls or Lakers. We have the primary pieces now and I really think with proper trades, we can win it all next year! One thing I would be interested in seeing is a list of the teams that WON IT ALL through keeping a large group of young players without adding veteran help. Many people on this board think that with time, all of our needs will be fulfilled internally. But I feel we may need to get some help from outside. Looking forward to your responses...
man, Talk about laying it on think. You guys are trying to use history to say either Francis or Mgmt has to get their act together, when history clearly shows that Yao Ming must impart his own dominance, without which, there is no ring. Are you actually trying to tell me that Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Jordan and Shaq (totally 19 rings) would never have won a title without the perfect role players....hogwash. RIET, With the exception of Detriot's team of 4 HOFers, every one of those teams since 1980 had the best player in the league. Show me any supposed "best player in the league," and I will show you a better one who beat them for a ring. Trading for the right role players is just an excuse reserved for the teams who finish second. And Yao already has plenty of role players. Without Yao becoming dominant or Francis becoming Jordan...history says that we will not win...perfect role players or not.
Jordan and Shaq were the best players in the league years before they won a championship. Im saying Kareem, James Worthy, Pippen, Drexler, Kobe, Robinson, (Moses Malone or Dr J.) were not perfect role players. In fact, all of them in their prime would be top 50 players in the History of the NBA. This is not including Byron Scott, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Horace Grant, etc etc etc - To have a 3rd option be a perennial all-star or hall of famer is not a typical role player either.
Ummm, Magic Johnson was 29 yrs old in 1988. Are you saying Jordan passed him up that year?? Magic was in his absolute, dominating prime. Hell, I'd take Hakeem over Jordan in 1988. Jordan did not play in 1986, 94-95, and Shaq was not better than Hakeem in 94-95, for sure. Shaq was also notorious for giving nothing in the playoffs. He had a 1-22 record on elimination series before winning in 2000. Everything else you are saying effectively says you don't believe Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Jordan, and Shaq would ever win a title without great role players. I mean, where are these top players in the league that never won...and what was so wrong with their teammates?? Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Jordan, Shaq just flat out make the game easier for their teammates. They would not have gone titleless over their careers with the same teams that Drexler had, Ewing, Reggie, Barkley, Payton, Robinson... If Yao becomes dominant, he has all the role players he needs, as is.
That's exactly what Im saying. Are you saying that Jordan wouldve won a championship without Pippen or a Pippen equivalent. Pippen in his prime was one of the top 5 players in the league. Maybe maybe not. Certainly not a definite. Shaq wouldve won a championship without Kobe or Kobe equivalent? Kobe is also one of the top 5 players in the league. The same thing you said about Detroit can be applied to the Lakers and Celtics. How many HOF'er were on those teams? Kareem and James Worthy were just as good as anyone on those badboy teams. Same for McHale and Robert Parrish. Who would you say is the Top Player in the league right now? If Shaq was in San Antonio and Tim Duncan was on the Lakers who would win the Championship? If Tracy McGrady was on LA and Kobe Bryant was in Orlando, who would win a championship? Right now there are many dominant players. Pairing yourself up with another dominant player is what makes the difference between a good team and a championship team.
If you believe Jordan, Duncan, Moses, Magic, Bird, Hakeem and Shaq would not win a ring eventually with Yao's current teammates, then we will never agree. I'm done.
From 1996: Before he left the New York Knicks for a sunnier climate in Miami, Pat Riley offered some interesting insight into the makeup of a title-winner. "If you look at championship teams," Riley said, "they all have those two elite players. We have a lot of good players. But somewhere along the way, we have to find that second player who will support the greatness of Patrick (Ewing)." When Riley speaks about championship teams, it's worth listening. Riley won four NBA championships and nine division titles in his nine seasons as coach of the Los Angeles Lakers. Then, after a year behind the NBC Sports desk, he moved to New York and took the Knicks to within a John Starks three-pointer of the 1994 NBA Championship. So when Riley says you need not one but two premier, franchise-type players to mold a championship team, it's worth examining the concept. Riley certainly had those two players in Los Angeles where Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson made the Lakers sports' most glamorous and successful franchise in the '80s. Supporting players like James Worthy, Norm Nixon, Byron Scott, Jamaal Wilkes and Michael Cooper didn't hurt, either. In New York, Riley had Ewing, one of the game's best centers at a time when the importance of a premier pivotman seemed to be back on the upswing around the NBA. But the rest of the Riley-era Knicks fell short of elite status. Starks can be a great scorer, but he is a classic streak shooter who struggles to be consistent. Charles Oakley is a great rebounder, but little threat as a scorer. Derek Harper is an excellent all-around player, but a set-up man rather than a go-to guy. Anthony Mason? Charles Smith? Good players, but not what Riley had in mind. Riley's comments came not long after the February, 1995 trade in which the defending champion Houston Rockets shook up their roster by dealing power forward Otis Thorpe to Portland for aging but potent guard Clyde Drexler. It was clearly a gamble; since the acquisition of Drexler all but sealed the exile of Vernon Maxwell, it meant the Rockets were losing two-fifths of the starting unit that had brought the franchise its first title only eight months earlier. However, the Rockets' reasoning was that asking Hakeem Olajuwon to carry Houston to a second consecutive title by himself was asking too much. As brilliant as he is, getting a second premier player to take some of the load off Olajuwon at crunch time became paramount, even if it meant breaking up the winning hand. How important was the acquisition of Drexler? Fast forward to the opening game of the 1995 NBA Finals, Houston at Orlando, for perhaps the most dramatic example. With 5.5 seconds left in overtime, the score was tied. Rather than try to force the ball to Olajuwon, the Rockets got the ball to Drexler and the veteran guard drove toward the basket. He went past his man and forced Magic center Shaquille O'Neal to come over and pick him up. Drexler's five-footer over O'Neal was off target, but suddenly freed from the Orlando center, Olajuwon got prime position and tipped in the game-winner for a 120-118 victory. The Magic never recovered and went on to lose in four straight games. Without Drexler, Houston undoubtedly would have tried to force the ball in to Olajuwon. Having Drexler gave Houston the chance to let a second go-to guy break down the Orlando defense and allow Olajuwon to clean up. Let's look at 10 contenders for the 1996 NBA championship, and how they measure up to Riley's "go-two guys" formula for success:
Simple formula: Shaq + Kobe = dynasty By Mark Kreidler Bee Sports Columnist (Published Oct. 28, 2001) The Lakers still have Shaquille O'Neal, right? Kobe Bryant plays on that team? Ducky. Wake me when it's over. Not to speculate wildly before a single NBA game that counts is played, but the league's only chance for a mini-dynasty lies in L.A. And right off the top, considering everything, there just isn't a compelling argument against the Lakers going for a three-peat beginning right about this minute. You say it's a two-man show, Shaq and Kobe and Supporting Cast Inc.? I give you Phil Jackson's Chicago Bulls, who yanked six championship rings out of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen, with every other imaginable mix of players thrown together from year to year, from Steve Kerr to Randy Brown, Dennis Rodman to Bill Cartwright to Luc Longley. Two players. You say it's a Zen deal? All the more reason to suspect sustained excellence. Jackson won six rings in Chicago and now has two more in L.A. (He won with Jordan, of course, but let's see the Washington Wizards do that.) Jackson won two seasons ago with a dominant Lakers team that went 67-15 during the regular season. He won last season with a fractious, infighting bunch that was a comparatively mortal 56-26 before the playoffs. Good times, bad times, ring times. Formula: Two parts star players, one part head coach. Add a dash of assistant coach Tex Winter, purely for Triangle Offense flavoring, and you're about all done.
Steve Francis is an elite player! He is one of the only elite who gets 20+ points, 5+ rebounds, and 5+ assists per game. And he has been increasing his numbers every year. Maybe because...he had to. But he is very near the elite. Yao is going to be very near the elite. What do you consider elite? THE ONLY PEOPLE IN MY ELITE CLUB WOULD BE MICHAEL JORDAN, SHAQUILLE O'NEAL, and KOBE BRYANT. I'm only talking about the past 10 years.
Do great player make championship teams or do championship teams make great players. If some of those three pointer don't fall during our first championship against Phoenix, would Dream not still have been the best player that season? If we didn't get Drexler the following season, would Dream still not have been the best. I believe so and thank this is a hypothetical question.
You saying an 21yr old Shaq in Yao' place on this team does not win a ring, since he presumably has no elite 2nd player or quality role players? How about a 21yr old Hakeem? How about a 21yr old Jordan? How about a 21yr old Moses? How about a 21yr old Magic? How about a 21yr old Bird?
Littley, You should use that as your sig to save yourself time from retyping "Steve Francis is an elite player! He is one of the only elite who gets 20+ points, 5+ rebounds, and 5+ assists per game. And he has been increasing his numbers every year." Seems like you type that phrase alot.. just kidding with you.. Go Rox!
Hey Partner and Riet.. What are you guys arguing about anyways? It seems like you are saying the same things?? No?
hikanoo49, RIET believes we can't win without a more trades. I say that is only true if Yao Ming does not become a dominant player in this league. I'm saying that history shows that if Yao becomes dominant; the stats of 3rings and RIET's articles will write themselves, because history shows Yao has enough to win it, on this team, as is. If Yao becomes dominant, he could have been selected by Golden State, Chicago, and Memphis and win a ring eventually. And then all of a sudden, history will remember how great Jamison/Richardson, Rose/Chandler, and Pau/Battier were. RIET says, no that is not true, that Yao needs to be matched with a current superstar in the league, and apparently, Francis is not good enough.
