Rocket fans, please get to the point! Wink is a problem.

DCkid,

You know I am the biggest fan of Mobley you will find on this board. I did not say I think Mobley should be on the bench. I said, if Francis would play his real position, Mobley would be on the bench as a 33mpg NBA 6th Man of the Year, every year. Now, do I like that offense. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If we had a high post passer, I'm all over 2 shooting guards. We don't. I want one. Trading Mobley is not going to cut it. that's my take.

I didn't say that. I said Yao will change the game before Steve will. And that's an overstatement, I admit. But I did not say Steve is incapable of improving and changing the game. However, if these scouts, and Doc Rocket are correct, my money is on the Fortune Cookie changing the game, before Steve.

 

Please, if anybody ever reads anything I post on this board, read this: Steve is not necessarily the problem. The major problem the Rockets have is the fact they have NO SHOOTERS. No pure shooters to step on the floor and consistantly drain threes and jumpers off a PASS. We need set shooter who can catch Steve's pass when he goes inside and draws defenders. Obviously, Francis is more comfortable shooting off the dribble. So is Mobley. They may look like ballhogs, but they know we have no dependable shooters on this team, and that's why they don't want to pass. Langhi can shoot, but he's erratic. So is Moochie, Morris, Torres (now), ect. We have Eddie, yes, and he's good at it, and will only get better. But face it...the man is a natural POWER FORWARD. We need good shooting guards and small forwards to be successful.

GET DUNLEAVY!

 

Francis is a very good player, but I'm willing to say now that after three years in the league, he's not ever going to be good enough to lead a team to a championship. The reason I say that is the players that have done that, have DOMINATED immediately upon entering the league -- Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan. I have no doubt that Francis has the ability to be a very good player for the Rockets, and lead them to many playoff runs, but I don't think he will ever reach the championship level, simply because that is a level reserved for the truly, truly great players. I think if you want a championship, you have to be able to make that kind of call early on -- I'm willing to go for a new franchise player after 3 years of Francis. I'm pretty sure Chicago used the same line of thinking with Brand -- very nice player, but probably not ever championship caliber as far as being able to be the best player on a championship team.

 

Here's a novel thought-

Surround him with a frontcourt that isn't one of the worst in league history and see what happens.

Might help.

 

I hope the Rockets never ever use Chicago's line of thinking .

 

Damn. You don't have any confidence in him, do you? Besides Jordan, those players had excellent teammates that they could depend on to hit the open shot. None of those players were a 6'3 point guard who is expected to run a team and distribute the ball when you only have like, one or two teammates that you truly depend on. Who cares if he didn't lead us to the playoffs as a rookie. Steve is still learning - and I think with the right players around him - high-caliber players with heart. Two of his 3 years in the NBA have been injury-depleted. The next step is to make the playoffs, which I think will happen next year. Then, as the team gets better, they'll start contending for the higher prize.

 

Quit talking about supporting cast. The players I mentioned were so good that they alone were good enough to get a team to the playoffs right off the bat -- Magic dominating at CENTER as a Rookie in the Finals, Bird taking Boston to a title in his 2nd year, Akeem getting to the Finals in his 2nd year and practically never missing the playoffs despite crap supporting casts, Duncan dominating in the playoffs as a rookie and winning a ring in his 2nd year, Jordan setting the all-time record for points in a playoff game in his second year, Shaq making the playoffs as a rookie and the Finals in his third year, as well as being the first player in NBA history to be named Player of the Week in his first week in the league. Unfortunately Francis just isn't in that league. It's no insult to him though -- not many are. We can wait around and hope that he someday reaches that level even though he hasn't started his career anywhere near where those other guys did, or we can take a gamble on someone else that could reach that level. I vote for the latter, if the opportunity presents itself.

 

I believe with the exception of Shaq (who was destined to succeed with his size) and Magic, they all had an extra year of college compared to steve (2 more for duncan). Steve has already been the rookie of the year (yes co-ROY i know) and an all star this year (very likely could've been last year). i won't say i know everything those guys did back then but steve stats would fair well when put up against anyone and he still has a year to catch up to them and many of us expect a huge year next year if he doesn't have major injuries and migraines again. am i saying he's the next bird, magic, jordan? no. but has he done very impressive things in 3 years with only 2 college years before that. yes. so i think the jury is still out on being at that level.


now where is dada to say but he only has rodrick rhodes IQ so it will never happen.

 

Actually, our shooters are just injured. Unless you're going to argue that Glen Rice is not a shooter.

 

The Rockets lead the league in missed games due to injuries. Anybody who can't see that 99% of this year's struggles stem from that are deluding themselves.

It's kind of hard to reverse fate.

 

I agree with finalsbound! The Rockets need a strong shooting small forward. Rice will probably not play again next year. I'd be willing to bet money on it. And while I think Dunleavy would be a good idea, I think the best answer would be the hometown kid. READ THE SIG!!! I don't know how they could pull it off, but in my mind that's the best possible move they could make this offseason, maybe with the exception of Ming.

 

I really don't think it's fair for Stevie to be judged this year....maybe I'm just too much of a fan?

IMO, he proved last season that he will and can distribute the ball, as well as attempt to play defense.
Like someone mentioned earlier, it's as if he's dropped in every category this year......forget the stats.......just the way he plays.
I say he's a leader, but we NEED a COACH.....or a couple good assistant coaches.

A great player isn't much without a good/great coach.
There's a reason Paul Pierce, A. Walker, and the Celtics are doing so much better this season than the past couple of years.


Also, I think it's unfair to blaim this season on a single person or a particular act.
From injuries, to lack of heart............we just SUCKED.


The MAJOR thing we need to do is get some Plays to go into Rudy's PLAYBOOK.
Can we run anything but ISO?????????

 

f4p-

#1: Funny that his co-rookie of the year, Elton Brand, was deemed to not be a franchise player either. Very good 2nd banana, yes, but not someone CHI felt they could base the franchise upon. They haven't won the trade, but the fact the Clippers are outside of the playoffs with Brand and a guy who's playing like he's one of the top 4 centers in the league, plus Miles, Richardson, and Maggette, it looks like they have validation.
We could go into the ROY award, and see if guys like Mike Miller are franchise players, but that's another day

#2: The all-star argument is weak. Francis didn't deserve to be an all-star this year, based on his injury. I think the same of C-Webb. Maybe last year he deserved it, it was close. But again, every year there are 24 all-stars....but there's far from 24 franchise players in this league.

Ming says he patterns his game after Arvydas Sabonis. He's 7'5'' and only 22 years old. Clearly, if Rockets scouts deem him to be Arvydas Sabonis of age 22, without creaky-knees, he will be something. It'll take something super-natural to stop Shaq's team, and he may be it.

If you follow the crispee plan of Francis for Ming/Crawford (stay away from Best), and then pick up Butler at 6, here's what my team looks like (guy with highest availablepotential listed first)
Ming/Cato
Griffin/Taylor/Thomas
Butler/Rice/Morris
Mobley/(Torres?)
Crawford/Moochie

At that point, you have free agency if you wish to add a veteran big body for a tutor (like Willis or Scot Williams), or a different backup SG, etc. and possibly the #14 pick as well. Getting rid of Moochie probably wouldn't be a bad idea either, because you can find better shooters, and MUCH better defenders, and who could get the ball to Ming just as well.

OR, make a 2nd blockbuster with the Clippers of the pick, and trade KT/Moochie/#6 for Odom and Dooling, so you end up starting a center through whom the offense will run, a point forward, and a big hybrid guard, plus a shooting PF (Griffin or Thomas), and some 20 ppg SG named Cuttino. Add in a veteran backup SG or PG, with great experience, and you've got a team.

While rail thin, the youth (average age 21!) of a Ming/Griffin combo would have SICK defensive potential.

It's make or break time for Francis. He's provided SERIOUS doubts on his ability to play PG effectively in an offense without a passing big man, so requires the PG to create/find for his 'mates. Signing him to a long term deal with all these worries is dangerous; letting him walk for nothing, or lesser value is devastating. In an open market situation this summer, no names have been mentioned that are better than Francis, and a year for cheap plus exclusive negotiating rights to a 25 year old guard that averages 22-7-6 is a BIG offer to any team. Especially an electrifying one. Even moreso to a team that has a proven player who can run the team for them from a position other than PG, and has 2 ultra-talented big men, plus the legacy of MJ.

Will the pieces fall in place?

 

Before Walt ended this season with injury, he had come back prior to that shooting as good as anyone possibly could for a long period of time. Of course, the Rockets season was already shot, but that's beside the point. In the 14 game period, Walt was red-hot. He played in 13 of those games and shot 54 - 104. That's 51%. Out of the 54 shots made, half, 27, were 3-pointers. You can't expect any better shooting than that. Heck, you can't even reasonably expect that over most of a season. The Rockets record during that period was 6 and 8. That tells me we need something more that better jump shooters. We need a point guard that can get everyone involved in the offense, no matter who is on the floor. We need an offense that isn't designed for a point guard that can't distrubute the ball. Oh, that and a team that plays defense.

 

WOW

Lakers- Jabbar was MVP that year.
Boston- Parrish, Mchale, Tiny Archibald. They all sucked.
Rockets- Sampson 19 and 11, John Lucas, Lewis Lloyd, Robert Reid. Rockets Playoff starters averaged 6'10"
Those crappy supporting casts would look pretty good compared to Collier, Langhi, Walt, Tmo, Cato, etc.

Spurs- David Robinson, Sean Elliot, Mario Elie. pretty weak.
Bulls- They were 30-52 that season. About where the Rockets will finish this season. And they got rolled in three games by the Celtics.

Magic-Penny was 1st team All-NBA the year they made the finals.

Keep talking about supporting cast.

 

Stevie is a PG who:
A. Doesn't distribute the ball very well
B. Has shown in 3 years in the league that he can take over games, but he can not take over enough games to make the playoffs.

People get the point, great players carry there teams to the playoffs. Great PGs make their teammates better. Stevei does neither.

He either needs to be traded or moved to the SG.

Say what you want about the players around him but look at the NBA's elite teams:
Lakers- 2 stars and 10 guys who have roles
Spurs- 1 star (Duncan) with 2 other good players (Admiral and Smith)
Dallas- 5 Very good players (Dirk is near superstar)

My point is simple, look around the NBA and most NBA teams have 2 legitimate "good players" surrounded by others who have a role. So I don't buy the excuse that it's the fellow teammates.

 

Most good teams have two stars and role players who do things like hit open shots and play DEFENSE .

We have one star and no one who plays defense.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong about Wink. I just think it's too early to make the call.

I think Jason Kidd would have trouble winning with this team.

 

It isn't really about blaming Steve or Rudy. It is about scouting Steve, not using new playbooks. Great players make their own playbook, they don't need a coach to go find them one (that's for the college ranks). You must make a call at some point. Can you really surround Steve with the right role players for his playbook, or is it easier to get another star for these role players. You must measure Steve versus the talent you can trade him for.

imo, Ming (and his playbook) is better suited for these role players. (If the scouts are right about Ming.)

the way I look at it is, can we get the right role players, teach Steve how to play with them (that's the hard part, apparently),,,all that faster than can we trade Steve for someone who will fix our problems faster.

This is why I am so 100% against trading Steve for a guard. That's not going to fix anything more than Kidd "fixed" NJ into a 6th seed in the West. So freaking what? The best Kidd can do is get NJ a 6th seed in the West. Who cares? If you are going to trade Steve, you must do it with the idea to scrap the guard-oriented attack. You must go BIG.

So, how to you do that. It starts with being a shrewd GM. Or we sit around and pray that Eddie takes over.

 

Magic started at CENTER in Game 6 of the FINALS, and DOMINATED. He scored 42 points. He replaced JABAAR and played freaking CENTER! If that's not supernatural ability, I don't know what is. Could Francis do that his rookie year?

Bird was their best player in his second year and they won the championship. Could Francis have done that?

Akeem was the best player on a team that took the '86 Celtics to 6 games in the Finals in his SECOND year. Sampson was a non-factor the entire series. Could Francis have done that?

Elie was pretty weak by then. Duncan was the best player in his SECOND YEAR on a team that won the championship. Again, could Francis have done that?

Cmon. The man scored 63 POINTS against the '86 Celtics in a playoff game. No one has EVER done that. Could Francis have done that? Jordan only played 18 games that year, due to injury! He averaged 28 points, 6 assists, and 6.5 boards as a ROOKIE!

Shaq was Player of the Week his first week in the NBA! Never been done before! He was by far the best player on that '95 team.

Supporting cast is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not we've got a once-in-a-lifetime player in Francis. I say we don't. Just because he plays for the Rockets and is their best player, doesn't mean he's on the level of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, or Shaq. We can hang on to Francis and probably never win another championship, or we can go after someone else. Let's try to be realistic here.

 

You guys are all missing the biggest point here, all those players are TALL players...they play big.

We have a midget backcourt and NO help up front. The only team that comes close to this is Detroit and they were SERIOUSLY committed to defense and Isaiah was 10x better then Francis.

DaDakota