Haha Batman. I was not in the play. You probably knew more French than I did. I could not handle that teacher dude. She is crazy. Haha. I know of both those guys. Not really personally... Joe is hilarious though. One of the funniest guys I've known.
So are you saying that if someone didn't like Rocker, they could just claim he called them a name, and he should then be kicked out of baseball? Do you have proof that this incident even occurred? Also, there is a difference between showing up late for practice (hurts team), and calling someone a name in a restaurant (doesn't hurt team).
Now that the on-clock/off-clock argument has apparently been thwarted, we're on to what hurts the team. Being late for practice hurts the team, agreed. Does it hurt the team to offend entire groups of people? I say it does. First because those are groups of people who'll be less likely to buy tickets and support the team in the future. Second because there are gay players in MLB, in case you didn't know. There are also players of various ethnicities. There are many players who would refuse to suit up with Rocker. Those, aside from any moral or socio-political imperatives, are the reasons that Marge Schott "hurt" baseball. It is generally accepted that Rodman dug his grave not by being late to practice (which many malcontent players are), but by being a distraction. Rocker is too and it hurts the team. And it hurts the sport. And your defense (and his team's defense) of his behavior is disappointing. I'd like to think that, by now, no matter how much we agree to disagree about serious matters, we'd all have had done with someone like John Rocker. p.s. To Nomar: Yes. Joe is very, very funny.
Why do people in court plead guilty to a crime they didn't commit? To get a lesser charge because they're going to get screwed over somehow even if they're innocent. As much as I dislike Rocker he's in a no win situation. If this isn't true, and he didn't do it, if he doesn't apologize it is assumed he is still assumed guilty and he is a heartless and pathetic, and a out-of-control racist. But if he does apologize people want him banned permanently. Should Rocker be banned? No. Even a racist has a right to earn a living. The ironic thing is people are rushing to rip Rocker and ban him, yet nobody says a thing about Wil Cordero or Braves Manager Bobby Cox who beat their wives. The best team in baseball (Atlanta Braves) right now is managed by a wife beater and owned by a racist. Think about that.
So you are saying that MLB was threatening punishment. If they were, then that puts the whole "sense when does MLB ban someone for something they say" argument to rest. I am aware of few (if any) situations of people apologizing for something they didn't do/say when there was no threat of punishment. Out of that very small set of spineless, wrongly-accused apologists, most of them are worried about their public image. Does Rocker strike you as someone worried about his public image? If anything, he makes money off being controversial.
Great points RocksMil. I only brought up what hurts the team because you brought up Rodman. First off, any player in MLB would suit up next to Rocker. If he wants a paycheck, and Rocker is on his team, he will play. Second, if the GM or owner of a team thinks his team is being hurt by what Rocker says in a restaurant, then it should be up to them to decide whether or not Rocker remains on his team. Rodman wasn't kicked out of the NBA. He did much worse than Rocker (yes, kicking an innocent man is worse than a racial slur in my opinion....you know, sticks and stones and all that). I assume you would have Allen Iverson kicked out of the NBA as well? Jason Williams? Barkley? What about Reggie White out of the NFL? They should be gone, right? Whose defense of his behavior?
<b>So you are saying that MLB was threatening punishment. If they were, then that puts the whole "sense when does MLB ban someone for something they say" argument to rest.</b> No what I mean in that situation was that Rocker was trying to diffuse a potential bomb by apologizing. Baseball's higher ups have been acting weird lately, screwing up royally, and why risk getting a harsher then necessary punishment for something he may not have done? <b>I am aware of few (if any) situations of people apologizing for something they didn't do/say when there was no threat of punishment. Out of that very small set of spineless, wrongly-accused apologists, most of them are worried about their public image. Does Rocker strike you as someone worried about his public image? If anything, he makes money off being controversial. </b> Actually Rocker makes LESS money off being controversial. He had decent money from the Braves, and was considered a premiere closer. The Braves essentially dumping him killed his marketability. If he doesn't have the image he's making millions of dollars, with that image he'll be lucky if a team offers him a minor league contract, or a better then minimum wage (baseball scales) contract. And again, say that Rocker didn't do it, and he doesn't apologize, MLB doesn't need proof to punish you, and the hammer drops. Whether he's innocent or guilty apologizing is the best course of action because he's likely to get punished either way.
To back up some of Freaks comments, I saw a clip just the other day of Rocker screwing around on the field and joking with BLACK players. When you're on the field everybody is together, whether you make ridiculous comments or not. And the Marge Schott comparison is different. Marge was in a position of major power, everything she did hurt the sport because she was a major player in the sport. She dished out the checks, signed the contracts, and controlled everything. People think that her comments about Hitler got her kicked out of baseball, but that isn't the case. A decade of those kind of comments got her kicked out, the Hitler comments were just the last straw. And the difference between Marge Schott and John Rocker making the comments is the difference between a high ranking supervisor in a major corporation making the comment, and a 9 to 5 minimum wage employee in the same company making the comment. One is a figurehead, the other is replaceable. So if one is replaceable why worry about his personal feelings?
And I only brought up Rodman because I find it amazing how vilified he is when someone like Rocker still has defenders. Of the players, that might be so but it hurts morale. They might also want a paycheck badly enough to play with or for David Duke. So I guess your point here is that players care more about money than principle. Rocker is hated in the league by everyone who is not a straight, white racist. Period. His presence on a team hurts morale and thusly hurts the team. But I agree with your second point. Management will have to decide just how much he hurts the team. They (and MLB) will also have to decide how much they value money and winning over principle. Sticks and stones, whatever. It is arguably worse to kick someone than to call him a name. But it is definitely worse for a public figure to use language which disparages and hurts entire groups of people than it is to kick one person who you're mad at. And to do it repeatedly, after saying you understood why it was wrong the first time, is unconscionable. None of the guys you mentioned did this sort of thing systematically. They did it once, were reprimanded, didn't do it again. Rocker's out of control. Now we get to my most important point. Because I didn't come into this thread screaming for Rocker's head. I said I thought he should be banned as an afterthought. What moved me to post was the various people apologizing for his behavior because they don't believe gay-bashing is as bad as racism. I came on here to say it is. Whose defense of his behavior? Yours, Freak. And others'. Go back and read my earlier posts in this thread. I had a basically peaceful discussion with BrianKagy. We disagreed on some things and agreed on others. Since then I've just responded to angry gay-basher apologists. And if you're so committed to your position that you think Rocker's more innocent here than even he thinks he is, I'm confident I'll never convince you to embrace tolerance for all people who do not hate. But I'm willing to keep trying. What else you got?
IMO the line is the activity involved with the groups you mentioned. The Klan has a history of violence. As for al Quaida, it is a violation of Federal law to be a member of that organization. They are our enemy at war. Both of these groups are of questionable legality. Therefore it is a very different situation than what Rocker did. I agree with you that what Rocker did is deplorable. I'm just not convinced that he should lose his job over it.
Are you saying that MLB doesn't ban for racist remarks. They do. I've alread shown that. That is my point. People are arguing why should he be punished as if guys like Batman Jones are saying anything new. Rocker was punished, and likely being threatened with punishment again, just like you said. And like TheFreak says: Good points...especially the one about Ted Turner being a racist. I think you are talking about the Pollock joke. This is what Turner said...it pissed of the Catholics, and MLB fielded a request for suspension. Even the complainer dropped the request for suspension, because MLB convinced them that the "analogy was not as tight." He was no longer a full owner, and the NFL wasn't fielding with a suspension request. You can make the point of saying someone is exaggerating the issue, but don't turnaround and do it yourself to make a point. Comparing Ted Turner to Rocker, Powell or Schott was denied by MLB. What are we talking about...I thought we were talking about whether MLB will or will not ban. They will, and they
Refman, I intentionally amped up the volume with my analogy to find people's limits as to what was acceptable off-clock behavior. Both terrorism and Klan activities are the logical extensions of the hatred of bigotry. In both cases groups of people commit wrongs in the name of hate toward a group of people. John Rocker has that hate in his heart. What about demonstrating against gay rights? What about if he did in fact tell someone they were a freak and he hoped they got AIDS, as outlaw read on that message board? What if he said he agreed with Matthew Shepard's killers? Or with James Byrd's. There are greater and lesser offenses, I agree. But Rocker is a serial offender. I get offended when I come to a board populated by generally intelligent, basically sensitive people to read that it's not a big deal for a serial racist/homophobe to have once again demonstrated plain bigotry, and then "apologized" for it, when we all know it was a hollow apology. My beef was with the apologists on this board first and the teams and the league who continue to pay this guy second. No big deal, though. He'll hang himself sooner or later. That kind of hate doesn't give way to logic, no matter the stakes. He'll do it again. And if he doesn't get fired/banned then, he'll do it again. There were enough apologists in Louisiana to get David Duke on the ballot for governor. How many do we have here?
I used the word 'homo' to emasculate my combatant last week (during my road rage incident). I feel much worse about that, than about the fact I was about to kick the guy's ass. I slandered an entire group of people, in a manner not unlike making a racist comment. IMO, violence is just another tool of diplomacy. Beating the guy up may have been the redneck thing to do... but calling him a 'homo' was a very hateful thing to do. And sure, words are tools. But punches are things of emotion, and emerge from something hard coded. The fact that I pulled a hateful term out of handbag, when time came, is what is really ****ed up. That's why I am ashamed. Bombing the hell out of Afghanistan is something we have done to make it less likely events such as 09/11 will occur again. Had Bush gotten up on a pedestal and started calling the Afghanis a bunch of sand _______s, we would all be calling for his impeachment. That line about "sticks and stones" might be cute, just to empower little kids... but in a day and age where we try to subjugate violence, the meaning of many of these words has started to overshadow the weight of a simple punch or two. I knew what I had done was wrong... but reading Batman's succint posts only clarified the point. Forgive me outlaw. (and to those of you that want to show me the error of my ways when it comes to violence, save your breath. violence, I know, is horrible. But I was about to beat up a 6'4" 230-240 lb. wannabe football player. male-male competition, so forgo the analogies to how violence against children is wrong, so the counterexample shows all violence is wrong).
I want to clarify my points here. I think that what Rocker did was flat out wrong. I think a good case can be made to have him suspended. But I think there needs to be gross misconduct to justify banishment from the game of baseball. Think about this. How many players, not owners or people in a leadership role with the team have been banned from baseball becauseof something they said? I can't think of one off the top of my head. Plainly put, banishment from baseball for players has typically been reserved for the most egregious of conduct. I do think that there needs to be some kind of reprimand levied against Rocker. Not only because he was wrong, but because MLB needs to make it clear that all people are embraced by the game. This comes at a time when the future of baseball is in jeopardy. They need to act accordingly, but not overreact. I really wanted to make my thoughts clear. There are people involved here that I have come to respect (like Batman Jones), and I don't want to be misunderstood.
Words or Fists Achebe, Your actions are completely unacceptable in my mind (and remember i come from a place that was recently labelled by the UK media as the murder capital of the world) .... you are a complete tool and to make matters worse you actually want to stay and live in Utah permanently, the only acceptable behaviour that didn't occur was your Mrs jumping out and leaving you and the state with the 6foot4 guy you insulted so terribly. You have made you grave now, hopefully karma, some other driver or a poisonous plant will bite you on the arse when you least expect it. For some reason you have built up this reputation round here for witty one liners that people generally get a great laugh from, which even to me, occasionally raise a smile, but damn how wrong can one person be, you make me sick from the bottom of my stomach. This place on the super highway is amazingly diverse (and now perverse) and i suppose your actions cannot be unexpected considering the huge range of types that visit here. There are so many great people and personalities here, but for all the quality and smarts that are brought to the table by the likes of Clutch, Jeff, Oeilpere, Doc Rocket and others, the whole lot is spoiled by the inhumane behaviour of the likes of yourself and while I'm at it the bitter and twisted views and actions of HeyPartner, who feels so insecure in his own little world that no one else can ever have let alone share with others a view that may be different to his warped way of thinking. Man why does he even bother, just go start your own site and post your own views to yourself. Insight you call it, sure yeah insight into how the anal retentive mind of a clueless one-eyed wannabe something special has been. There are so many proablems in our society and you in essence have summarised them one act of road rage. Where the hell do you get off over-reacting the way you did. To start with there may well have been some legitimate reason for the mistake this guy made on the road, but no could you just give him a chance, No way, you get him to pull over, try some physical violence and then subject him to verbal abuse involving discriminating against him becasue of size and sexuality, people like you make me sick, no wonder people carry guns with them, to protect themselves from elements of society that contain people like and your self-centred niave and dense views. Give me a redneck anyday, they would make a clown and embarassment like you look like a nobel prize winner. I'm Done with this
SmeggySmeg-- I count 2 posters that you lashed out at by name and who knows how many others implicitly. I could analyze your post, but I won't. I'll just bottom line it for you. It was unnecessarily harsh, inflammatory and immature. Yep...you are exhibiting MUCH better behavior than what you are complaining about. I don't agree with Achebe any more than you do. His behavior was reprehensible. Had he pulled me over I would not have been so nice (I'm 6'5", 240). Better yet, my wife typically does carry a gun. Agree with him or not, there is no reason to totally assault somebody's character based on one incident.
I'm sure I can think of some way you can make it up to me The difference is Rocker doesn't think he has done anything wrong and he doesn't show any remorse. His apology was more like justification. It's cool Achebe, we've all said stupid things while upset. As long as you honestly regret it later is what matters.
I've been reading this board regularly for a long time now and, frankly, I don't have any idea why people have a problem with heypartner. He's one of the main reasons I come here. Refman: You're very cool. We disagree on almost everything. But I love how we do it and I love how we disagree less and less. We should give seminars in Washington. Achebe: I hadn't actually read your first post in this thread until just now. Sorry. I'm lazy. I think you did a wrong thing. But you know, I think we all do a lot of wrong things. I think it's cool that you'll think twice before doing it again. All we can do is try to be better. And then fail and try again. I'm a hothead too. I've done a lot of things I wish I hadn't. I just hope I do less in the future. Like Bob Dylan said, "I'm sorry for everything I've ever done and I hope to remedy it soon." Smeg: Read my graf above to Achebe. And before you worry bout the splinter in your neighbor's eye, take care about the plank of wood in your own. God ain't finished with him yet, as the saying goes. Same goes for you and me and the rest of us. Give folks a break. Rocker: You've had a break and a break and a half and then another break. I would rather have Rodman. Rodman: I would rather have you.
The only way I disagree with you here outlaw is that Achebe elevated his words to threats of violence. That's ridiculous. I really don't have anything against Achebe and I generally enjoy his posts. But that type of behavior cannot be tolerated in a polite society. More importantly, he really could have gotten hurt. There was a case similar to that in Houston a few years ago. The guy in the other car had a concealed handgun permit. He shot the guy who was making advances. No criminal charges were filed. I think we can all learn something about restraint from that story.
