outlaw, could that report have been biased or at the very least inaccurate. It's AP facts vs a gay online sites facts. who knows what the truth is. Sounds like poor judgement on Rockers part (and I do believe he is a bigot, so I don't like the guy), but he may have been caught in the moment and possibly provoked. I won't pretend to know how it feels to be gay, but I don't think the world is always against you.
Batman-- You know that I do not condone poking fun at people just because they're gay. But I couldn't disagree more about being banned from baseball. 2 points: 1) The Hall of Fame has a bunch of bigots in it. Ty Cobb was reportedly the biggest jackass in baseball history. 2) The comments that landed Marge Schott in hot water were said at a Reds press conference. She said that she had signed "another million dollar _________." (I'm NOT even going to type part of that word.) In so doing she gave the impression that her insensitivity was subscribed to by the Cincinnati Reds as an organization. THAT MLB can not abide, and they acted accordingly. That was not the only transgression...and her actions were generally taken at press conferences. That's the difference here. Rocker's actions are terrible. But in no way can they be confused with being the views and conduct of the Rangers organization as a whole. Marge Schott's comments could be confused with being the views of the Reds as a whole. That is why she was banned and why this situation is fundamentally different.
if it were any other player i would give him the benefit of the doubt but this has been a pattern of behavior with JR so I will believe the eyewitnesses over the Rangers GM. I do wish someone had caught it on tape though.
I've got to agree with outlaw on this one. The reported behavior fits John Rocker's normal behavior. I really doubt that anybody would just make this up. Had they made it up the language would have been much more inflammatory. This is not a publicity stunt. I believe that Rocker is a jackass and that he did everything the report says he did. But I guess I could be wrong.
Agree with outlaw and refman. As an isolated incident from a normal person, people may not think twice about this, however, this is coming from a known racist, and that's why people aren't so quick to forgive.
Thats bull**** though. Just because he's made bad decisions in the past, you can't automatically assume that he's lying. In my opinion, it seems much more likely that he was heckled by those people. I can see them saying "Hey look, there's that b*stard John Rocker. Let's **** with him and see if he explodes." I can't see Rocker saying "Hey baby, mind if I start another public relations disaster and maybe ruin my career again?" Also, his comments were punished previously because they were made in a public interview. This incident was different. BTW Batman - Didn't you like come to my French class and help us with some play or something?
Nomar-- You can't apply logic to Rocker. He's a hothead and he's not too bright to boot. Would somebody smart have said what he did in 1999? No. He reacts without thought.
Rocker has already been suspended once for racist remarks, guys! Why are we discussing whether there is precedence for it, and slippery slopes?? What is a slippery slope about a 3 Strikes policy in Baseball...There's a full count on Rocker. ooh, I made a funny! And Rocker wasn't the first player suspended for racist remarks. Someone else was suspended for comments before Jackie was allowed to play. Marge Schott was not the only person in mgmt banned either. Al Companis was banned the imfamous, blacks "<i> may not have some of the necessities to be . . . a field manager or . . . a general manager." </i> on Nightline. Technically not banned by the MLB, but if you follow the Dodgers much, there really was no way the O'Malley's were going to force his retirement without pressure from MLB. They loved Al Companis. He was forced out to avoid a ban. Schott couldn't be forced to retire; she was the owner. They had to ban her. Refman, these bans and Rocker's previous suspension aren't about the organization as a whole, they are about the image of MLB. They didn't ban Schott, because they were worried about the Reds image; they banned her, because they were worried about their image. Player, owner and general manager-- all suspended or banned. They are fundamentally the same, imo. They, at least, represent precedence for it, and there doesn't seem to be any problem with a slippery slope when they choose to do it.
You are absolutely right, that the incidents are different. I agree. But the issue of our debate seems to be why people are making a big deal about it. Well, I'm willing to bet part of his previous ban was a stern warning that if he expresses racism again, he'd be banned for life. That would be news, right? Iverson made news for the "shut-up you f!cking f*****." He probably would have made more news for "shut-up you flameboy fruitcake." LOL!!!! Jay Leno and David Letterman would have had a field day with that one. Anyhow, imo, it is news, because Rocker has already been suspended once and one more time, he's probably gone. So, he better watch what he says...he doesn't want to be accidentally picked up on a Mic like Iverson was.
I'm not here to argue the particulars of whether or not Rocker should be banned. I think he should (for reasons HP mentioned), but I'm willing to back off that, on the grounds that this is the bad behavior of a private citizen in his off time. And if Rudy T decided to attend Klan rallies in his off time, I hope you'll all apply the same logic. And if Steve Francis decides to spend his offseason in a cave with Al Qaeda, I hope you'll forgive that as private behavior as well. For myself, I will reserve my most hearty disdain for whichever teams continue to employ this guy. Nomar: Yes, that was me. You guys were great. Were you in the play? I also taught Samuel Beckett's Endgame to several of Ms. Forster's English classes last year. Smart kids over there. Do you know Chris Morris or Joe Folladori? They both work with my theater company.
One in the same. The image of MLB is that composite of the image of its member clubs. If Schott would have made those comments on a golf course somewhere they wouldn't have banned her. She reserved those ignorant comments for when there were a handful of microphones stuck in her face and a wall with the Reds logo on it behind her. This clearly id sifferent. Don't you think it's a stretch to equate calling somebody a fruitcake with membership in a group that flies planes into office towers? I mean I don't like dispersions being cast more than anybody else, but it's just not the same.
I said it was different. I agree. OK!! You mind being fair to my posts. My point was Rocker's previous suspension was the same as Schott, Campanis, and the other guy in the Jackie Robinson era. MLB does not tolerate it, and they seem to have close to zero tolerance for management and something akin to a 3 Strikes policy for players. Anyone questioning whether MLB would ban for racist remarks can look at history to answer that. It isn't even a discussion. Yes, they have, and they will again. People seemed surprised this is news. It is news because Rocker has already been suspended once, and he probably has a warning not to do it again. Is this an offense that MLB would punish for? First notice that he did apologize, and his team did make a statement. So, I'm sure he is fine. Who knows whether MLB would have punished him without a public apology. But, I don't think that is the issue, when people said, "Why is this news?" It wouldn't be news if it weren't a previously suspended player.
Friends, I didn't say that calling someone a fruitcake was the same as joining the Klan. The argument against punishing Rocker is that it was private behavior, protected by free speech, when he was off the clock. If a sports figure marched with the Klan in the offseason, that would also be legal, private behavior. Guess we found your limit. You wouldn't ban someone for saying something hateful, but you would ban someone for associating with hateful people. What was that about slippery slopes?
I agree with BK here. If you want to be an ass to a known ass what do you expect? Rocker has said much worse. There have been much worse said in a lot of situations. Now obviously Rocker is an idiot, his response always has to be stupid and controversial, but this guy wasn't exactly "Humanitarian of the Year" himself!
There's a difference between hanging out with a racist, and hanging out with mass murderers who are wanted world wide. Hanging around with a racist is a bad PR move and brings your character into question when dealing with you personally, hanging around with murderers could be looked at as aiding and abetting and thus illegal.
No it wouldn't BJ, not even closely. You can not associate one individuals behavior in an isolated incident(private) with the behavior of an entire group of people that the individual is a part of in a public forum such as a march.
For those who are still confused by the specifics of my admittedly extreme analogies: I posted them to respond to the idea that if a pro athlete does something in their offtime, which is unsavory but legal, it's their business and their business only. That's what people have been saying in this thread about Rocker's behavior. The plain implication is that a player should be punished for on the clock behavior, but not for off the clock behavior. To which I again respond that there are examples of off clock behavior which would be too much even for those of you who are decidedly libertarian when it comes to gay bashing. I listed some. They are extreme, yes. Duh. That was the point. I'll amend my Steve scenario though. Let's say he wants to summer with Saddam Hussein. That is in no way illegal. Maybe he wants to march with Saddam in anti-American demonstrations. Or maybe he just wants to question our Mid East policies, like Bill Maher did. Maher wasn't arrested or banned from television, but his show was cancelled because people found dissent so distasteful. We have freedom of speech in this country, but there are consequences to speaking out of your ass in a hateful manner. As Maher learned there are sometimes even consequences for speaking out of your mouth in a thoughtful manner. But there are consequences. Rocker should suffer them. HP's right. This is his third strike. Rodman wore makeup and showed up late to practices and he can't get hired anymore. Why are teams still hiring this racist, homophobic redneck?
