No, Brian. For what he says. He has the right to say what he wants, no matter how hateful. But MLB has a right to ban him for it. It wouldn't be the first time. And I doubt you'd be here defending him or saying it wasn't a big deal if it was a racist comment. If he was provoked he could have called those guys assholes. I don't think that one incident of racism or homophobia is grounds for a ban, though it is grounds for me not watching him anymore. This is another in a long string of totally unacceptable behavior from this guy. Enough's enough. If he repeatedly used the n word, he'd be out.
I just want to make sure I have this clear: you think people should lose their jobs for holding and/or expressing unpopular opinions, right? I just think that's a slippery slope.
What the **** is the big deal here? Go Rocker for standing up for himself, I would have done the same thing. Don't be a p***y b**** and take crap from people you don't even know.
Well, Nomar, I agree with that, but I think the issue is with the way in which he did it. If you were accosted by five black guys and called them "assholes", that wouldn't be a problem for most of the people on this BBS. If you used a racial epithet instead, that would be a problem.
Whoa Nomar, I didn't even know you could say "p***y b****" on here without being **********ed. Thanks. No, but seriously, I think Rocker is an idiot, regardless of what he says. If we've determined that it's okay to voice your opinion no matter how abrasive it may be, then of him I say this: ***** **** ***** ****** ***** ****** ***** **** ***** *****. Y'all feel me?
Brian, I'm just pointing out the double standard here. Racist remarks are not tolerated. Homophobic ones are. I think that when an owner of a team has a player who offends a large group of people, who may never support the team again, he has the right to fire him. I think that MLB has the same right to ban him. This happens right now with racist remarks and Rocker's been suspended before. Why shouldn't it happen with homophobic remarks? And those gay guys baited him because they hate him for his intolerance. If black guys had done it and he'd used the n word, would you still be cheering him on Kagy? And, incidentally, people are fired for what they say all the time. You have the right as an employee in America to say whatever you want and an employer has a right to fire you for it. I'm the boss at my company. I don't want racists or homophobes working for me. I have a right to fire someone if they let me know they're racist or homophobic. So does MLB.
Oh, and you forgot the "Does your dad let you lick the testicles of strange men" line in your signature Nomar. That little tiff of theirs cracked me up when I read it this morning. Apparently I'm humored by toilet humor. I'm ashamed
Brian, we posted at about the same time and I didn't see your most recent post. I wouldn't have any problem at all with Rocker calling them assholes. Frankly, I wouldn't have had a problem with him punching them in the face. They were provoking him, apparently. My problem is with a comment that demeans a whole group of people because of the behavior of individuals. You think fruitcake isn't that bad? What, not as bad as f*****? How do you feel about spade? What about boy? What about monkey? Not as bad as the n word, right? So would those be okay things to say to black people who harrassed you? I say no, for the above reasons. Hate is hate. Racism is racism. Homophobia is homophobia. Baseball (like every other form of entertainment) has a lot of gay fans. I'd ban him as a business decision, if nothing else.
Ironic. Why do you even need to ask that question? It's asinine. Do you want me to play devil's advocate and say, "Sure, I like racists"...? Haven't my posts in this thread made my feelings on that subject clear? Equating racism and prejudice against gays opens the question of biological condition and that's been discussed to death on this BBS. Rocker, if he's actually given it any thought, is one of those people who think homosexuality is a choice rather than a biological disposition. In which case, that would differentiate it from racism. I still don't personally think that would make prejudice against gays tolerable, but it would shoot down the very quick and convenient crutch of equating it with racism, something that virtually everyone agrees is morally wrong. Right, but MLB is a cartel, a trust. I think that makes their conditions of employment (legally speaking) a bit different than the average business.
Come on, come on. It's apparent that neither of you will succeed in getting your point across to the other. Arguing now is fully futile. I like you both a lot, Batman from my days as dTown and Brian from as recently as DallasThomas. My point is, quit arguing!!! P.S.- Every post of mine has a smiley in it today, but I'm in a bad mood. Hmmmm....
Brian, Those people who've been victims of intolerance are touchy about intolerant people. I'm not condoning that behavior, only trying to shed light on why they may have behaved that way. Some black people hate all whites because they've been discriminated against. I don't condone that either, but I understand it and, as a white man, I'm sensitive to it. Incidentally, I re-read the article and the waiter says he wasn't baited. I'd tend to take a random stranger's word over Rocker's, given his history. MLB had no problem, as a trust, banning Schott. We don't need to get into the whole choice vs. biological imperative thing on gays and lesbians again. Even if homosexuality IS a choice, Rocker's comments are unacceptable from a public figure. And he deserves to be punished for them, just as he was when he made racist comments. As I've said before, I understand why some of you don't think it's that bad to make fun of gays, and I don't fault you for it. It's got to do with your upbringing. I do think attitudes are changing, and for the better. The more we say, as a society, it's not okay to hate a group of people, the more it becomes socially unacceptable. Not long ago, it was okay to make remarks disparaging race and religion and it was more okay than it is now to disparage homosexuals. I have faith in all of you that your views on this matter will become more sympathetic and sensitive over time.
Funny thing is, we're not arguing, really. I see the only points of disagreement as: 1) How bad is it to call a gay person or persons "fruitcake"? 2) Should MLB be able to fire John Rocker for expressing bigotry? On the first, I would say, "Not that bad". But that's me. I'm not gay, so I don't know how a gay person would feel to be called that. Not really up to me to set the level of outrage. On the second, I would say, "That opens a can of worms." Rocker is not expressing those beliefs as a major league baseball player. He's doing it as a private citizen. And while it's noble that we want baseball to expunge bigots, that is a very dangerous power to give an employer: the power to punish unpopular thought. Oh, Batman-- didn't see your post. To be clear, I am not arguing in Rocker's favor. I'm looking at this in terms of strict interpretation of the law. The racism/homophobia/biology thing is the approach I think Rocker's defense would take-- "they're not the same thing, because skin color is biological while my client thinks sexual preference is a matter of choice".
"Firing" would only happen if the MLB thought they would lose any of their precious remaining fans in this time of need for ticket sales. I say they should just suspend the dude for awhile and have a gay pride day where every team in the league wears the old Astros unis with the rainbows. No offense intended there in any way, because if I were gay, I believe I would appreciate that gesture.
Hey, Dallas. Didn't know you were dtown. Welcome back. I agree with Brian, mostly. I agree on the following: 1. We're not really arguing. 2. It IS a slippery slope. I disagree that fruitcake is not that bad. I think it's equal to calling a grown black man boy. And I disagree that there should be different standards for racism and homophobia. When Rocker made homophobic AND racist statements, he was punished. When he just made homophobic statements, his team says it's a private matter between him and some individuals. Other than that, we're not too far apart here.
Good points. I also think you could argue that when Rocker did an interview with SI as a member of the Atlanta Braves, he did so as a representative of MLB. When he gets in a tiff in public and calls people names, he's doing so as a private citizen. I guess the question becomes, when word of it gets back to MLB, what response is proper? Anyway. Good discussion.
Agreed, Brian. And I recognized the difference in situations even when I posted the comparison. Good catch. Even so, if it had been a racist comment, even in a private altercation, I maintain that he would have been punished. Good discussion, yes.
I have plenty of gay friends who would just laugh it off. You guys don't think this couple is just loving every second while telling their friends about it? Rocker is a pretty known fella in the gay community, I would guess. On a sidenote, Ben Bratt called Michael Caine a fruitcake in Miss Congeniality.
