Robertson Accuses Chavez of Seeking Nuclear Material From Iran

Cool. Glad to see we can disagree on one topic without assuming that polarizes us .

Nationalizing industries in the absence of a emergency certainly is down the road toward communism. Oh, right. I keep forgetting that the evils of communism are just a boogeyman used by the religious right to keep people down ...

How simplistic. Yes, there is a difference between building alliances to spread communism/socialism and building an alliance for other reasons.

The majority of Americans are scared of people like Chavez, not just the 'ruling class' or 'the elites.' In fact it is a total misnomer to claim that only the wealthy/ruling class in Venezuela don't like Chavez. In the recall election he won with something like a 54 - 46 split. Is the 'wealthy class' that big in Venezuela, lol? The entire middle class doesn't care for Chavez. Strange also that while we hear all these recriminations over those who attempted a coup against Chavez - we never hear criticism of Chavez who himself led a coup in Venezuela. Oh the irony.

 

I think the majority of Americans aren't really that aware of Chavez, and those that are aware that don't like him have some good reasons. He isn't my favorite person either. At the same time the business community and elite have started a propoganda/smear campaign, so much of the dislike and fear of Chavez comes from that. True there are more than just the elite wealthy in Venezuela that don't like him, but he won by a larger margin there than Bush did here, and he has stuck by his word to the working class, and greatly improved their situation in Venezuela. Again part of the negative press that influences people against Chavez still stems from the wealthy elite, and those that end giving up more than they were giving up before.

Chavez has his good and bad qualities. You don't improve the situation of the lower class wihout some pain and sacrifice on the part of others. It is only natural that those folks will have resentment against him. What I would really like to do is see what Chavez could come up with if he didn't have to worry about outside influences trying to overthrow him, and force him out.

The fact is that Chavez won't play ball with U.S. oil businesses the way others would and they don't like it. Oil is a necessary component to running our nation. It is no wonder some people are scared of Chavez. I would rather work with him than against him though. I think by doing that we wouldn't have to worry about oil shortages etc. Yes, it won't be business as usual, but to me that is a great thing, and not a bad thing at all.

 

My point is that the 'elite' are not the only people who don't like Chavez, and I think we're agreeing there.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'smear' campaign. I think so much of the dislike and fear of Chavez comes from his policies.

Sure, rob from those with, including the middle class, and give to the poor improves their situation. Not sure that's an admirable route to take.

Nice. Give him an out when he inevitably fails. The influences trying to oust him are not primarily 'outside.' See the 'Si vs No' campaign.

That he nationalizes stuff already payed for is certainly not something to like. I think we should deal with him at whatever level we have to but otherwise ignore him. When he inevitably either runs the country into the ground or turns (as all populist/communists do) into a dictator - then we'll see.

 

1. Yes we do agree on that.

2. By smear campaign I mean hyping up jailed political foes to paint him as someone who doesn't allow competition without mentioning that in at least some of the cases these were people tring illegally overthrow him.

3. If the middle class sacrifices a little and the upper class sacrifices a lot in Venezuela then I think it is worth it. Helping the lower class who have been stepped on for some time down there is a good thing.

4.The influences trying to oust him are both from within and from without. Those from within at times have allied themselves and worked with those from without. I have no problem with Chavez being ousted by a popular movement from within. I am not giving him an out or saying he will fail. I am saying that his policies target the right things and I would like to see what they come to without being slowed down by worrying about a takeover.

When things don't work change is necessary. It may or may not be the right changes, but I would rather see something new tried than to keep doing business as usual when it only benefits some and unfairly harms others or keeps them down.

I would rather not ignore him, and support him, but place some conditions on that support such as that he not turn into a dictator and that the political process remain democratic. He seems open to those things so it wouldn't be that difficult. Better to prevent a dictator with our support than have a dictator and have to deal with it via the military or supporting a bloody revolution.

 

I think you're fooling yourself. He'd only use any 'suggestions' as further proof of the big gringo imperialist conspiracy.

I couldn't disagree more. Hardly a principled stand there, FB. I'm all for using influence with dictatorships if there is a chance to move them in a good direction - in this case that's just not going to happen. He's a powergrabber and he's just used the poor to gain that power. His attempted coup shows he's not interested in democracy. If he's really bent on being dangerous he's not going to give that up because we 'suggest' he does so. If he's not then better to ignore him than support him. He's not reformable so let him take his inevitable tumble - it usually happens sooner than later - and stay out of it. Why would we want to implicate ourselves in his power move.

 

I think it depends on what the suggestions were. If we suggest he do business the old way he won't buy i, and it would be ammo of the imperialist conspiracy. But if all of our suggestions were only human rights suggestions, then I don't think it would be a problem.

I think there was a misunderstanding. I am not saying to support a dictatorship, but to support him as long as he isn't a dictator.

For example we can pretend that Musharaff isn't a dictator. We support him, and in turn we do have a certain influence over how things work there. By supporting Chavez we could influence him in such a way that would ensure he doesn't become a dictator.

Yes Chavez did have a past attempted coup, and it seems that since then he's realized he went about it the wrong way. If you are his friend you can continue to influence him in that same democratic direction. If you are his enemy anything you say will be ignored and contrarian actions may be made. The way to get what we want is to applaude democracy, and his help of the country's poor. Provide support that he asks for, and make no other demands on his oil, beef, or anything else other than humanitarian matters.

I was never saying we should support a dictatorship, which I think you believed I was saying. I was saying let's support him to help make sure Venezuela never becomes a dictatorship.

 

Pat Robertson quotes are becomming as much fun to follow as W's.

...on Republican senators who may not salute and stand at attention for Harriet Miers:

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=19453