trades i would do if other gms smoked marajuana kg and troy hudson for steve francis and eddie griffin PG Hudson SG Mobley PF KG SF Posey C Yao now, when i smoke marajuana, i can see championship trophies that don't exist in real life.
Do you talk to people like that in person? Jeez! By the way, Posey is a slashing/running Foward, not a shooting guard. I mean, it's nice to have a shooting guard that can actually "shoot" the ball, right? Until Francis learns to run this team and keep this turn-overs down, nothing else matters. And if Francis can't keep his turnovers down as PG, then he has to move to the 2. So, Posey at the 2 wont happen then.
Instead of 2 low basketball IQs in the backcourt, we'd have only 1. The same people who want to move Francis to the 2 would be happy with Brent Barry at the 2 and keeping Francis at the 1. It's simply more likely to find a smart, floor general type PG than a smart SG.
Smeg, I think you are right on with your concerns. Its not inconceivable to think that Francis will get a similar amount of touches as a SG and will retain his "initiator of the offense" role. IMO, you either have to keep him at the 1 and hope he cuts down on his turnovers, like David S said or trade him for a the type of PG that you desire. I don't have the feeling that moving SF to the 2, solves this teams problems. I could very well be wrong and if the team does decide to move him to the 2, then I HOPE I am wrong.
Codell, I agree if the ball is still in hands the results will still be the same, one of the key for me is you rarely ever see Steve scoring after moving without the ball, whether it be off a screen or cut etc, something that is key for a SG. I am actually happy for him to stay at the 1, moving him to the 2 requires a very specific 1 to come and I'm not sure we can land that player with what's on offer. I think Rudy needs to instruct them all esp Steve and Cat to play team ball more, move without the ball more, pass to Yao and then cut, become defensive weapons and some how learn to run a fastbreak. Smeg PS check your email later codell
Having the ball in his hands isn't the same thing as a problem we have with our system that Rudy implements. If Francis doesn't learn the "team concept" then it wont matter if we move him to pluto. He'll still be jacking up shots without any regard for the team. But, by moving him to the SG, we must assume that we'll have a competent PG in his place that will distribute the ball and get the team involved (and Mobley to the bench). If that PG is in place, then Francis will have less opportunities to make turnovers at the SG by trying his sloppy passes. Plus, we're almost be giving him "permission" to be a scorer, rather than a PG/Scorer. I mean, it's obvious that the "PG" job is not working for Francis. So, it's not as simple as just changing his title to SG. I hope you didn't think that's all that was supposed to take place.
Here we go again: In defense of Steve: Per Game against other point guards (ESPN Stats) Scoring 2nd Assists 11th (Offense isn't built to pass) Turnovers 1st (worst) (3 more than Kidd???) Rebounds 2nd Steals 2nd Blocks 1st So what we have here is a scoring point guard who it is generally agreed doesn't shoot enough, which would have to mean that he passes too much. He clearly plays hard on defense and scores enough to keep his team in the game. He makes bad passes which I would put more on the coaching staff than him. Our offense is not passer friendly, players don't move to the ball so passes are almost always around the defenders or out of the double team in the paint. This can be fixed with coaching, which I don't get the impression is being done. Considering that he's only 3 turnovers past Kidd for the season with the same per game average I think we can live with that. So he passes less, shoots more and the TO problem resolves itself? He doesn't catch the ball and score much because the guy he passes to the most is Cat, who doesn't pass it back. Yao has proven that he and Francis can play a brilliant give and go game so maybe next season more of his passes will go to Yao instead of Cat? Its up to the coaches to make the players play within the system, if Rudy lets them run wild and play street ball and doesn't make the most of their talent then blame him. Do you really feel Rudy will change the offense if we bring in a different PG? All that will happen is the ball will be dumped down to Yao or over to Steve, and then Mobley off the bench. The team will look the same on offense. Trading the entire team away won't fix the problem if the coaches keep calling the same game regardless of talent. Some other interesting facts: Our FG% is 10th best but we are 21st on defense so we aren't making them earn their shots. Houston is 10th best at not turning the ball over, but 26nd at creating turnovers. We're 26th in the league when it comes to blocking shots and 10th when it comes to getting blocked. Leave Steve alone guys its not his fault we don't win enough games. The team doesn't play consistent D, the role players don't perform their roles well enough, the offense isn't designed for passing, and the coaching staff doesn't seem to know how to fix any of this, nor do they appear willing to admit there is a problem with any of this. Blame youth, blame defensive intensity but don't pile everything on Steve.
So who are the going to get to play the point??? i just don't think there is anyone available that fits the bill.
David, Would like to elaborate on your points and clarify what Smeg and I think. If Steve is indeed moved to SG, I can understand your theory about how it will reduce Steve's playmaking problems and turn him into more of a scorer. If you look a lil deeper though, taking away Steve's playmaking opportunities, will significantly reduce, and to a lesser extent, negate, his skills as a player. If we were to move Steve to SG and bring in a playmaking PG (a capable one) who would be in charge of initiating the offense, then you essentially turn Steve into a shooter, or a pure SG (coming off picks, cutting, etc.). If this indeed what would happen, then it begs the following question: Is Steve at the SG with a new PG better than Cat at SG with a new PG? Steve and Cat are probably about equal as far as shooting goes. Defensive is the difference here. Cat, on a good day, can almost shut down an opposing SG (save Kobe, etc.). Can Steve do this? Now, if the intent would be for Steve to retain some of the playmaker role that he has had, then we run into the same problems we have with him as a PG. This is why I feel the only options are either to keep Steve @ PG and hope he "gets it" (lets keep in mind that he showed flashes of progress in the 2nd half last year with regards to distribution and the reduction of his TOs) or trade him for the type of point guard we desire and keep Cat at the 2.
Just do what the 76ers do with Allen Iverson! They make it work! Mix their type of offense with big man offense... Anyways. Francis and Yao are our future...Yao is 22 and Francis is 26. Griffin is 20. Nachbar is like 22 too I believe. Well....how long will you think it will take the Rockets to become a contender? Within 4 years? 4-8 years? At least 9 years? 10 years later??? Or whenever we get a new coach? They need to plan for the future! If they are still rebuilding...then they need to develop the young players and train them very well...and get good veteran role players...and get rid of cancers... And be patient... What players who are under 25 years old do you think can become stars????? If we are rebuilding...we should get them. If we aren't.....and we want to win now, we should be targeting Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Elton Brand, Jermaine O'Neal, and veterans who have won before. NOT JAMAAL CRAWFORD!
codell and Smeg, Why does it have to be such extremes? Where either Francis is a completely running everything or doesnt touch the ball at all except when he is scoring? This situation only exists in a fantasy basketball world. What folks that want Francis to take on more of a scoring role and less playmaking are envisioning is another playmaker whether it be a true PG or a wing player like Brent Barry or Lamar Odom controlling the tempo and making the correct INITIAL read. A huge part of efficient offense is getting the correct person the ball in the correct place at the correct time. Steve Francis makes HORRIBLE initial reads. For instance, there are situations where Steve is supposed to run a pnr but he kind of just waives off the big man and instead tries to challenge three guys in the lane. The intention of the play was supposed to be for Francis to make a correct read and get an open mid range shot or get the ball moving into some other part of the offense. The play could get finished in one of many different ways, but the entire success of the play is based on a correct INITIAL read. Eric Snow makes many of these correct reads for the Sixers and thus the appropriate person ends up with the ball in the appropriate place. Iverson may still have the opportunity to slash to the hoop later in the play, but the defense is already broken down by the INITIAL read and points are much easier to come by. Steve Francis will still touch the ball, but it will be much later in the play and in a situation where he is more likely to score. A smart and savvy playmaker wont just disregard the post and penetrate into a wall of three defenders. In addition, with Steve Francis not controlling the tempo, the Rockets will become a much better transition team and will get many more easy baskets. Plus, with Mobley off the team, that frees up 15 or so shots a game (many of which were jacked outside of the offensive flow) to give to Francis and Yao. Steve and Yao need to be combining for 40 or so shots per game which constitutes about half the team's shot attempts. Leeb did an analysis in another thread about how the true prime time duos get this many shot attemps per game.
Current or Future Stars: Yao, Steve, EG (depending on head damage) Current or Future good players: Nachbar, Mobley Role Players and nothing more: every body else Thus if we are to move players around pick them from the good or below. I might include EG in a year or so if he doesn't show serious improvement. What we need is a banger in the paint and a couple of pure three shooters at the 3 spot. Rice doesn't have it anymore and i've started to come around to the idea of trying Posey out as the 2 guard with Francis at point and mobley off the bench. I don't believe that either Cat or SF are unable to learn I just don't think they're being used in the right way. I don't object to moving SF to the two if we get a very solid PG in and IF it works out that SF puts up at least 10 more points a game. I still think he's just about perfect for a PG, not a true point but a scoring point is just as valuable. Any PG we bring in will need to be able to switch off with SF and guard the SG's or we'll have problems with them posting up on him. That creates further problems. SF puts up Kidd type numbers despite his 'inability' to create. (everybody slams Franchise for his turnovers but Kidd only had 3 fewer this season and they average about the same). Unless you're going to get a Jason Kidd (he likes jersey) or a super smart PG like Parker (SA would be crazy to let him go) then what would be the point? You aren't going to game more than 2-3 assists per game and you'll drop off everywhere else. Once again, I think an offensive adjustment and better coaching will even this team out offensively and hopefully improve the defense at the same time.
MManal, i understand your thinking but for me unless the schemes change then Steve is still going to continue to primarily score WITH the ball in his hands. Bring in Snow is nice but with the offense we run would he really set up Steve much, when has Steve ever moved off the ball to get his scores, that is my worry, i'm not sure Steve has the skills to be the prototypical SG in the offense we currently run. besides who else outside of Snow can fill the role??? I'm just not sure who we can land that will miraculously play the non scoring/defending but creating point guard role. without landing the ultimate player and adjusting the scheme to have Steve coming off picks (cause that is how iverson gets the ball primarily) I am not sure the move to 2 will be worth it.
The Francis for Lebron isn't going to happen. Why would anyone trade for a guy who hasn't made the playoffs thats nothing real special, for a player who might be really,really special. I don't anyone will trade the top 3 picks for Francis. Like it or not,its just fact.
Smeg, Steve would score in a similar fashion to Allen Iverson. This essentially is a combination of both WITH and WITHOUT the ball. Allen Iverson does not run off a pick everytime like some in this forum assume; a lot of the time its Snow making a play with the ball, and then Iverson receiving in a 1 on 1 situation to finish it off. Sure Steve will have to make some type of adjustment to playing 2 guard, but I really dont think it'll be too much of a problem. Steve Francis has been a natural scorer throughout his basketball career esp at Maryland. Many folks felt he was a SG coming into the pros, but the Rockets, Steve's stubborness and little charade on draft night and Cuttino being on the team have forced him to play out of position for 4 yrs. Steve will just be moving back to his natural position. Aside from Eric Snow, there are many who could fill a necessary playmaking role to allow Francis to move to SG that wont require the ball much and will open up more shots for Francis and Yao. Andre Miller, Jamaal Tinsley, Tony Parker and the two wing playmakers Brent Barry and Lamar Odom. Brent Barry actually did play a lot of PG once Payton left town. Also, Jeff McInnis and Alvin Williams have gotten some run; I wouldnt mind acquiring either if Odom is acquired as well b/c both are tall guards that defend well. The point is, all of these players are attainable w/o losing Yao or Francis. I know you are a hard core Mobley supporter and have been since his rookie season, but step back and look at it for just half a second. Wouldnt you feel damn stupid if Steve Francis was traded to some other team and ended up becoming a beast at the 2 spot for that organization? Wouldnt you feel terrible if Steve was averaging something like 28-6-5 from the SG spot and helping whatever team he was dealt to win a crazy number of games? Trading Mobley is a much lower risk proposition and is really worth a try to allow Steve to play the 2 guard spot and allow Yao to get more shots. It is just not possible for Yao and Steve to get enough good shots and play up to their potential with Mobley as the starting 2 guard. One other point, some of the information Doc has stated openly w/o any cryptic messages has been that Francis will be the 2 guard next season. He made this statement clearly w/o mincing any words. Assuming you trust Doc's info, which I do, then the Rockets obviously feel Francis at the 2 will be successful.
Actually Juugie, there is a lot of "reading" going on or atleast there is supposed to be. For instance, Rudy may communicate a pnr to Francis from the sideline. Francis may call this play on the floor, but if he makes a stupid decision ie waiving off the big man, setting the screen or using the screen and making the incorrect pass or dribbling into three defenders, then that is an incorrect read. Rudy cant step into Francis's shoes and make the decision for him on the floor. Francis is given an outline of how the play works and then it is up to him to execute it correctly in a game time situation. The defense will not react in the identical fashion every single time which is why broken plays result and players need to have a good basketball IQ and sense of the game. If the PG (Francis thus far) continues to make the incorrect read then the entire offense suffers and underperforms. The options for Rudy then are to either bench Francis, trade Francis or change Francis's role. Which one seems the most logical?
