you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you? you do realize that he singlehandedly carried the raptors into the 2nd round of playoffs 2 years ago, right? he was 1 three pointer away from beating philly and going to the ECF. last year he was hurt. this year, he overcompensated for his knee injury and hurt himself again. but when he came back this year, he was absolutely incredible. as for vince being a ballhog, that is absolutely ridiculous. do you realize that the #1 complaint with vince in toronto is that he IS NOT SELFISH ENOUGH?!! c'mon man! think before you post, please.
Verse, There is a possible case to be made for dealing for Vince Carter, but I wouldnt do it. There are too many holes in his game that really separate him from being a real elite player. 1. Vince Carter has always lacked a good mid range game which McGrady and Kobe for instance have. This is a big part of the reason why Vince cant take over games the way McGrady and Kobe can. Vince's offensive game consists mainly of his attacking the rim or taking one of those lazy fadeaway type 20-23 ft shots. Vince never did a good enough job developing his ball handling and mid range game at North Carolina or in his first few seasons which is why he really cant motor through traffic the way the other big time perimeter players do. Steve Francis on the other hand has an incredible mid range game and can get that 15-18 ft shot whenever he wants it. 2. Vince Carter has had a knock on him the last few yrs that he simply is not a good enough defender. The elite two guards ie Kobe and T-Mac are far superior to Vince in this area. Maybe he can develop in time in this area, but the Rockets wouldnt be solving their guard defensive issues by acquiring Vince. Vince's game right now is more style than substance. If he is going to be a good player later into his career, he had better improve his ball handling and mid range b/c he is not going to be able to use his superior athletic ability to get to the rim the way he can now. The fact that he took the Raptors to the 2nd round in a joke of an Eastern Conference doesnt really say much to me; the Raptors would have been quick first round fodder in the West if they even made the playoffs.
MManal: thanks for the reponse. the only disagreement i have with this is about his ballhandling. vince is not an incredible ballhandler, but he is definitely above average. as a matter of fact, vince actually played quite a bit of point guard this year. of course, that will never be his full time position, but it did show his ability to handle the ball, penetrate, and create shots. as for vince @ carolina, i think his main problem was antawn jamison. that was jamison's team, and vince never was able to fully develop his game there. once again, i won't disagree about vince's defense. it is passe usually. of course, the same could be said for steve francis, right? if the rockets were to move steve for vince, i'd play him at the two and try to acquire a jamal crawford-type of point guard - athetic, runner, good defender. vince vs. whoever at the 2 guard is generally going to be a victory for vince, regardless of what defense he plays. the only 2 that stand a chance against him are tmac and kobe, and he has outplayed them on occasion, as well. same can be said for steve. highly speculative, but probably true. of course, that could be said about any team in the east, including the nets, and i'm sure everyone here would take jason kidd, right? but it really doesn't matter. i mentioned his performance in response to that ridiculous post about vince leading his team. what is undeniable, imo, is that vince would be an incredible match with yao ming. vince's outside shooting is better than steve's. and don't forget that vince is 100% able and - more importantly - willing to defer to his teammate(s). in this case, it would be yao. also, vince plays extremely well off the ball. steve has not proven that he can play well off the ball yet. francis has only thrived when he has dominated the ball.
btw, MManal, if vince carter solved the problems that you bring up, he would be the best player in the nba - bar none. then, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. however, the small flaws he does have makes him available for the right price. what you have to ask yourself is "is vince/yao better than steve/yao?" to me it is a no brainer.
Of course, if Vince came to the Rockets and started scoring a bunch, everybody would be telling HIM to pass it to Yao...
Verse, I think we agree on a lot of things but couple of issues to touch on. Vince Carter cannot get his shot anytime he wants like T-Mac and Kobe can which is why he is more suited to be a #2 option than a #1 option, which it seems we agree on. The question to be asked then is would it be in the Rockets best interest to have a #2 option like Steve that can get his shot whenever he wants or someone like Vince who really cant but probably does a better of deferring. On the surface it may seem that Vince would be the better match, but think about that for a second. Would the Lakers have been better with someone like Kobe that has the moxy to just take big shots outside of the offensive flow late in playoff games or would they be better with someone like Vince that tries more to be in the flow and take "what comes to him". Same thing for the Kings, would they have been so close to winning if they didnt have Mike Bibby who was willing and able to take and hit the big shot even when the structured offense broke down? This is a big reason why the Jazz could never win it all; they always had a very nice structured offense, but this broke down late in key playoff games. Just take a look at the 2 yrs vs Chicago in the Finals, the Bulls did an excellent job of getting the Jazz out of the offense flow by taking away their pet plays, and Utah simply didnt have anyone that could simply step up and get their shot outside of the offensive flow. I feel you need one star guy on the perimeter that can do this, not two like the Rockets have but one. My opinion is that to win big in this league, its good to have one perimeter guy that can score outside the offensive flow and one dominant interior player. After that, you mix in the appropriate role players and build around those two players talents. Note, your not building around 1 guy, your building around two guys. As far as style vs substance, I actually think Steve's game has a lot more substance than Vince's. Steve does not rely on raw athleticism to get his pts. I dont think you will truly be able to see what Steve brings to the table until he moves to the 2 guard spot next season. Steve, despite what some think, can get his shot from many different areas on the floor and defenders, whether they are 6-1 or 6-7, have to honor his ability to penetrate thus giving him space to shoot. Also, Vince is not a better shooter than Steve; his 47% from the field is more a function of his awesome athleticism than shooting prowess. Vince is a better finisher than Steve but not a better perimeter shooter.
Well do you think Vince Carter is likely to develop a proper mid range game at some stage in the next few yrs? That is a huge part of what separates the good players from the great players. You need to have that initial burst going to the hoop (this is a combination of good ball handling and a good first step), then you have to be able to stop on a dime, elevate and nail the shot with a lot of consistency. This is not the easiest thing to be able to do over and over and over against NBA defenses. Michael was excellent at this, Kobe and T-Mac are very good also, Iverson can get the shot no prob but doesnt make enough of them. This is why I am such a huge proponent of moving Steve to the 2, the guy is only in his mid 20s and is doing all of this already plus has a damn good 3 pt shot (which for most of the yr hovered around 40%). If Steve didnt have to worry about being a PG, he'd be able to channel his energy towards this. Vince Carter maybe could develop this part of his game, but you tell me, is he going to sit in the gym hours and hours and hours during the offseason working on it? Its possible he may, but Vince has just not shown the overall improvement in the offensive skill department I wouldve liked to see during his tenure on the league that Kobe and T-Mac have. He still comes across as a guy that scores based on athletcism. Steve on the other hand has done a brilliant job of this imo but is being locked down by having to play the point. Compare Steve's ability to get various shots now to his rookie season and you see a world of difference. The problem is that the guy is a bonehead decision maker which is why he shouldnt be playing the point.
Carer cannot got off his shot as well as McGrady, Kobe, or.....Steve!?!? What, exactly, do you base this on? Despite having two injury marred years, Carter's career stats include 24.1 ppg and a .454 fga%...Let's compare.. Steve...lifetime career ppg: 20.1...or exactly 4 fewer point per game than Carter. Lifetime fg% .438, or .016 lower than Carter...and Carter has nowhere near as many turnovers. What on earth is the criteria you use to determine that Stve, as you put it, "Can get his shot whenever he wants...while Carter can't."? Steve's best scoring year was 21.6...or 2.5 ppg lower than Carter's average year. Vince's best was damn near 28 ppg. Kobe: Lifetime 21.5 ppg...with a .456 fg%. Until Carter's % dipped with injuries this year, he lead him at that as well as PPG by ah healthy margin...as is he trails hin in % by .002%, while leading him in ppg by 2.6 ppg. McGrady: Lifetime 20.3 ppg, and a .453%...Both lower than Carter's. I don't see the numbers to back up what you calim to be self-evident. Certainly not for Steve...and probably not for McGrady or Bryant...unless you are making assumptions about Carter's loss of game due to injuries. People forget the numbers this guy was putting up. I agree that McGrady and Kobe's youth was a factor, but Carter has also had 2 seasons worth of stats way below his established norm due to injuries... Also...re: mid-range game. Ask any coach, and they will tell you that for a 2-3, it's the in between stuff that s the most taken away by being the focus of another team's defense. Double teams, usually staggered ( one closing, one back)or exaggerated ( r side or l side depending upon a player's tendancy) or semi roatation ( playing another man loosely, but coming off him to attack player w/ ball if he looks to penetrate) are the most common ways a defense tries to take out another star player on the perimeter. Carter has faced this his whole career...Kobe has never faced this, Jordan didn't face it after they got Pippen...McGrady has often faced it, and Iverson has faced it pretty consistently. None of them can shoot from the outside like Carter... Does it make more sense to look at the way a guy is consistently defended as an explanation for a missing part of his game, especially when another, more difficult aspect of that part ( outside shooting ) is a strength, or to assume some weird quirk in his game? And re: Carter not working...see what his major 'weakness' was seen to be coming out of college....That's right, the outside shot.
good question. the answer to it is yao ming. huh? let me explain... the reason kobe is so valuable to the lakers late in games is because shaq cannot be relied upon to carry them in the final minutes. this of course, is because of his erratic free throw shooting. if shaq were able to knock down 80% of his FTs, kobe wouldn't be the one taking those last minute shots...it'd be shaq. so, when you apply that question to the rockets, the answer becomes "yao ming". if yao ming can develop into a true dominant player in the paint, you don't need vince or steve or whoever to create in the end. think about it...did hakeem need clyde or mario or vernon, etc. to create shots in the 4th quarters? no. why? because he was able to do it himself and could not be stopped with fouls. dream was an excellent late game free throw shooter. that's because c-webb turns into a p***y when games are being decided. like i said, if your true #1 option can be a dominating post force, you don't necessarily need the big shot creator from the perimeter. they are a great luxury, but not absolutely necessary... see: hakeem/drexler. even still, there were games in the finals against the bulls where the jazz could have won...had karl malone hit his free throws. as for the jazz and their refusal to run another play outside of the pnr... it was obvious that pippen was jumping out high from the pnr and doubling stockton hard. it was happening on almost every play. but the jazz did not properly adjust. well, he's definitely not relying on his brain. vince carter, for his career, is a 39% 3point shooter. steve: 36%. vince has, of course, done this with no real post presence and as the only real option on offense. and i have to disagree about vince getting it done primarily as a function of his athleticism. vince takes far more jumpers then he does pentrations...it's one of his biggest criticisms...
honestly, he has one now. the problem is that he's good enough to get to the rim when he wants to. i imagine that when he gets into his early 30s he'll start using it more and more. Macbeth: i KNEW you'd be chiming in on this one.
MacBeth, Are you insinuating that you'd rather have Vince than Kobe or McGrady b/c his career stats are better? Um, Kobe and T-Mac jumped straight from high school and didnt really start putting up numbers till their 4th seasons, obviously Vince's careers stats are better. This whole mid range thing is based on observation not on stats. How many times a game does Vince take his defender one on one off the dribble and pull up on a dime to score, how many times do Kobe and McGrady do this? Francis does it a lot also, and he would do it even more if he wasnt forced into the PG spot. The reason Steve only averages 21 PPG is b/c he doesnt get the shot attempts and opportunities a true scorer does. Next year when the Rockets move him to SG, he'll easily exceed 25 PPG. Also, I have no idea what you are referring to when you say teams take away the mid range shot? One of the biggest cries from the basketball purists is that the pockets are there clear as day but players nowadays only know how to attack the rim or hoist up threes. Becoming a good mid range player takes a lot of work and practice which a lot of the young players dont put in. The great ones have no problem getting that 15-18 foot shot and hitting it with regularity b/c they actually spend time working on it. Verse, It is actually amazing to me that the Rockets won a ring the first time around w/o a perimeter that could create his shot at will when the offense broke down. This is the one of the few exceptions I have seen to this. The second season, Clyde took this role over and did it very well. If Hakeem had a dominant perimeter player on his team like that for his entire career, we'd have more than two rings imo. Also, the point I am trying to make is that it is difficult for a good big man to really get the ball where he needs it late in playoff games when offensive flow starts to collapse esp if that extra perimeter dimension doesnt exist on his team. When you have a talent that can drive, pull up and nail no matter the situation, it really loosens things up and prevents the team from becoming one dimensional. This is the huge difference between the 99 championship Spurs team, the ones that lost the last few seasons and this yr's teams. The 99 team had a player in Sean Elliott before his game went down the tank that could absolutely make shots whenever necessary even if they werent set up for him. They complemented with a dominant inside player in Tim Duncan like the Rockets have in Yao. After that, his game declined and the Spurs didnt have players that could do this consistently enough until this season. Surely you can see the difference. You claim that Vince has a mid range game, did this happen sometime this year? This has been the big knock on him for a while now from astute basketball circles. Did he develop it while he was recovering from injury or something?
Verse, I love Carter, but don't you think he is a tad fragile? It seems as if if he has been out of Tor. line up quite a bit recently. If he were 100% healthy, I'd pull the trigger though.
1) Kobe and T-Mac get the benefit of the doubt for 3 years for coming out of High School, but Carter doesn't get the benefit of the doubt for 2 years of injuries, or missing his Senior Year? I don't get how playing 20 something games for a few years in college is supposed to allow you to develop faster then playing 70 or so in the pros...But ok, for the sake of argument, let's evaluate them clear of distractions. We'll wipe out each of McGrady and Bryant's 3 first and worst seasons, and discount Carter's rookie campaign, and his injusred last season and a half...We'll count him for the 21/2 seasons previous to that. Okay, here are their stats over that time... Carter 26.9 ppg... .469 fg%... .407 3pt%...in just about 200 games. Bryant 26.6 ppg... .462 fg%... .333 3pt%...in almost 300 games. McGrady 28.15 ppg... .455 fg%... .373 3pt%...in about 225 games. McGrady also took more shots per game ( about 22 and a half) than either Carter or Bryant, who both shot about 21. So let's see...taking away 3 seasons for T-Mac and Bryant, and 2 1/2 for Carter, each for their own reasons not being representative of their ability, and we have Carter with the best percentages, both from the field and from long range, and only McGrady averaging more points per game, but also taking an additional 1.5 shots/game...and in that all of these guys average 1.25 pts/shot, the difference in pts accounted for by the extra shots comes out to about 1.9 points...which if you subtract from T-Mac, you get him averaging 26.25 ppg if taking the same shots as Carter or Kobe. So, yeah, in that Carter averages as many or more points, shoots for better percentages from the filed and outside, and remembering that this discussion wasn't about who I'd rather have, but about who can and cannot create their own shot, and also about whether a healthy Carter qualifies as a number one guy, I'd say that he has at least as much claim to that, and is at least as good at creating his own shot as either of the other two...Wouldn't you? If you want to go by a few instances of seeing someone play, that is deceiving...The numbers don't lie. I've gotta run, but will address the Steve comparison when i get back.
If not for the injury, we wouldn't even have this discussion about Carter not being able to do this or do that. He was and can still be a player who can dominate a game. The point is how much does he come back from the injuries and do it? The same knee problems that have limited him, if it happens to Steve it would really take away from his effectiveness. The only knock to ever go against Carter is his willingness to play defense. Other than that, he's a player that will step up to take and make a big shot. All this about him lacking a mid range game is not true. I can't count how many times hewould drive to the hole, get cut off and rise up from mid range and stick a jumper in someones face. Just like other explosive players, he needs his legs which he hasn't had for the last couple of seasons. If not for the injury, no one in their right mind would trade Carter for Francis.
MacBeth, Personally I don't think there is a better scoring machine in the league outside of Shaq than Carter. The problem with Carter is that he is not on the same level defensively as Kobe or TMac...IMO.
Before what I saw last year, I would have agreed. But...Carter has always had outstanding ability defensively, just erratic effort, which drove me crazy, and was among the reasons I much prefered McGrady. But Carter defenders always pointed out how much energy it takes to be The Man on offense, and those guys usually coast a bit on defense...and we saw that this year with T-Mac and Kobe. Van Gundy, who knows a thing or two about defense, was just on the air laughing about Kobe getting All Defense, saying that he never played D all year, and that if he ( and Shaq) were the best at their positions, then nobody's playing defense...McGrady was a amuch better defender before he had to carry the offense...Jordan was always able to pick his spots defensively, as he had Pippen to take the other team's top/hot guy. On the other hand, Carter has really, really stepped up his defense the last couple of years when healthy. I used to gmash my teeth about his matador defense, but in the playoffs two years ago, and this and last season when healthy, he has been good to excellent. It's always been there for him if he wants to, with his athleticism, size, and feet...but he's been using it more and more lately. If he's back 100% this year, and doesn't fall in love with himself and forget his defense, you'll see what I mean.
I would do it. Steve Francis for Vince Carter. Why? BECAUSE MONEY!!!!!!!!! We'd be the most popular team in the NBA. Whoooooo. Well one of the most popular.... I'd rather give up Cuttino Mobley, Eddie Griffin, and James Posey and Kelvin Cato for Vince Carter and Alvin Williams. Lol....pray to God they accept. Steve Francis, Vince Carter, and Yao Ming. MUAHAHAHAH! Dream on cows. Les Alexander would be one rich man.
Looking at a bunch of stats and blocking out 3 of Vince's 5 season's does not prove to me that he has a mid range game. Every time I see the guy, its either attack the rim or throw up one of those fall away 20 footers. Ofcourse the guy is going to have a good FG pct if his athleticism permits him to get so many high pct dunks and plays at the rim. If it were a question of raw athleticism, Vince would have the edge over anyone in the NBA. However, you have to ask yourself, when Vince is 30 instead of 26 and his athleticism declines some, does the rest of his offensive game make up for it? If you took away half of Vince's acrobatic dunks, could he still shoot 46%? This is a huge question in my mind. Kobe, McGrady and even Francis for that matter are so far ahead of him in the mid range dept its not even funny. Two yrs ago when the Raptors lost in the playoffs and folks were coming down hard on Vince for not being a go-to player, these are the topics that were being discussed. Vince would say that he would "let the game come to him". The analysts countered that a true star doesnt do that, and it was pointed out that Vince simply cannot get his shot whenever he wants in crunch time of a playoff game. I just have never seen enough of the consistent mid range game and moxy to take over games late to think that Vince is among the elite. I have seen so much of this in Francis that it absolutely hurts to watch him shackled to the PG spot. Its like Steve is put into a position to fail instead of a position to succeed.
What the hell is James Posey? I mean I know he plays small forward too but he could do that easily. jeez.
